Deep Air - Here we go again....

[ucfdiver]

The fact that I and tens of thousands of other divers can manage narcosis at a more extended depth range than you can, seems to bother you. Why is this the case?

Because when you learn that you're kidding yourself, we're the ones that suffer when a dive site gets closed.

 

[DCBC]

You also have a full support crew and do not need to monitor your air supply which is unlimited. This is the stupidest argument I have seen in a long time for deep air.

Air supply and a support crew doesn't change the fact that a diver can or cannot work safely when subjected to narcosis. I dive deep air with OC SCUBA, the focus of my discussion is "deep air instruction" regardless of the particular make and model of equipment used.

I don't want to hijack this thread more than we have, so I'll start another thread.

 

[jtivat]

What I'm saying is that commercial divers are competent to dive on deep air; not because they are commercial divers, but it's a skill that can be learned. When I started recreational diving, it was learned by a number of experienced divers who wanted to dive deep. Now it's becoming a lost art, because it's easier just to breathe Trimix, yet Trimix doesn't prevent an inexperienced diver from going deeper than his experience dictates.

It's becoming a lost art because lots of very good and experienced divers died doing it. Just because you have done a thousand deep dives on air where nothing went wrong does not mean you will be able to handle it when the **** hits the fan.

 

[jtivat]

Air supply and a support crew doesn't change the fact that a diver can or cannot work safely when subjected to narcosis.

Hmmm just about all the deep air deaths I can think of would not have happened with an unlimited air supply via a helmet.

 

[JeffG]

It's becoming a lost art because lots of very good and experienced divers died doing it. Just because you have done a thousand deep dives on air where nothing went wrong does not mean you will be able to handle it when the **** hits the fan.

Its called being functionally incompetent.

The fact that diving is pretty easy and its pretty rare to get yourself killed. So lots of divers and instructors can go through their entire career without incident. Not all are so lucky.

 

[DCBC]

This seems that this is a reoccurring thread. I've started this thread to continue a discussion that was hijacking another. In summary, my position is that:

1. While breathing air at a depth of 50', a diver's performance and reaction time is lowered. Even so, the majority of us dive air at this depth safely.

2. Each individual possesses a different depth envelope to safely dive air.

3. Divers can be trained to expand upon this safety envelope with training. Deep air courses are designed for this reason.

4. Experience has a tendency to expand the individual's deep air envelope.

5. At some point, a diver wanting to dive deeper changes his breathing mixture to Trimix or Heliox. Ideally, these gases are available at the dive site at a price affordable to the diver. In locations where they are not, deep air training may be beneficial.

6. The use of Trimix now allows divers with as little as 100 hours u/w to be certified to depths of 300'. Although narcosis isn't an issue, I personally see a problem in certifying a diver to go deeper than his experience dictates.

7. Deep air seems to be the VooDoo gas that Helium was once identified as.

Comments?

 

[DCBC]

Hmmm just about all the deep air deaths I can think of would not have happened with an unlimited air supply via a helmet.

If you would like to open a thread on Surface Supplied Diving I'd be happy to continue the discussion. BTW, I've opened one on Deep Air however this was not focused on Surface Supply.

 

[DCBC]

Just because you have done a thousand deep dives on air where nothing went wrong does not mean you will be able to handle it when the **** hits the fan.

I have done dives on air, deep air, trimix and heliox where the **** did hit the fan. Training, experience and a buddy have made the difference for me. What's your story?

 

[JeffG]

1. While breathing air at a depth of 50', a diver's performance and reaction time is lowered. Even so, the majority of us dive air at this depth safely.

as you get deeper it gets worse. Case closed.


My position is that Helium should be the gas that divers are trained on. Remove Narcosis from the equation.

If the diver chooses to forgo that option (and dive air) at least he is doing so from a position of knowledge. (He/she knows about helium and its benefits)

Unlike how a lot of training is done now. Helium is not taught and the divers is not making that decision (to dive deep air) based on a position of knowledge.

2. Each individual possesses a different depth envelope to safely dive air.

Yep, but at some point your deep and it doesn't matter. No one is immune.

3. Divers can be trained to expand upon this safety envelope with training. Deep air courses are designed for this reason.

This is the height of stupidity.

4. Experience has a tendency to expand the individual's deep air envelope.

Thats ego talking. It just hasn't killed you yet.

5. At some point, a diver wanting to dive deeper changes his breathing mixture to Trimix or Heliox. Ideally, these gases are available at the dive site at a price affordable to the diver. In locations where they are not, deep air training may be beneficial.

Diving deep air is (and always will be) a compromise.

6. The use of Trimix now allows divers with as little as 100 hours u/w to be certified to depths of 300'. Although narcosis isn't an issue, I personally see a problem in certifying a diver to go deeper than his experience dictates.

This is not the fault of helium, but of training agencies.

 

[jtivat]

Please see below in bold.

This seems that this is a reoccurring thread. I've started this thread to continue a discussion that was hijacking another. In summary, my position is that:

1. While breathing air at a depth of 50', a diver's performance and reaction time is lowered. Even so, the majority of us dive air at this depth safely.

Because for most of us nothing goes wrong. Thousands of drunks make it home every night also b/c no one pulls in front of them.

2. Each individual possesses a different depth envelope to safely dive air.

Agreed

3. Divers can be trained to expand upon this safety envelope with training. Deep air courses are designed for this reason.

A well trained diver has a better chance if something goes wrong.

4. Experience has a tendency to expand the individual's deep air envelope.

To a degree.

5. At some point, a diver wanting to dive deeper changes his breathing mixture to Trimix or Heliox. Ideally, these gases are available at the dive site at a price affordable to the diver. In locations where they are not, deep air training may be beneficial.

Agreed but you are kidding your self if you do not think the danger level goes up. If you are willing to take the greater risk I have no issue with that just don't pretend and tell others it is just as safe.

6. The use of Trimix now allows divers with as little as 100 hours u/w to be certified to depths of 300'. Although narcosis isn't an issue, I personally see a problem in certifying a diver to go deeper than his experience dictates.

What does this issue have to do with deep air?

7. Deep air seems to be the VooDoo gas that Helium was once identified as.

Again because it has killed many very good and experienced divers!

Comments?