Din or yoke?

[RTee]

All my tanks (Singles and doubles) have DIN valves on them with some of them having the yoke insert. Therefore all but one sets of regs (out of six) are DIN. We also own two DIN to Yoke adapters that my GF and I always carry with us when diving locally or when travelling.

 

[Superlyte27]

Yoke does have more sticking out parts which adds unnecessary risks while cave diving but this is basic forum and the assumption is that the OP is not talking about cave diving.
Buying a DIN reg and using it with an adapter does quite the opposite, more cumbersome and more o rings. If its once in blue moon its one thing but if most of the time then it does not make sense.

Actually, the OP just asked which was better PERIOD. He didn't say for which type of diving. I'm going to assume that he wanted to know which was better from a safety standpoint, as that is the most important thing to consider when underwater.

---------- Post added April 13th, 2013 at 08:49 AM ----------

With all due respect to Superlyte, doesn't "all of Cave Country" plus technical dive operators still make up just a small fraction of dive operators and divers worldwide? One's choice should obviously depend on the type of diving they do and what's common where they do it, but I have to believe that the worldwide average dive is overwhelmingly on yoke. That may change in time, but right now, it seems to me that DIN is still relatively scarce outside of cave, tec and Europe.

But the availability of adapters should make the choice a no-brainer for anyone who wants to use DIN regs for whatever reason. As just about everyone has said: get DIN and an adapter.

And why is DIN used in Cave Diving, Tech Diving and Europe? Because it's safer. And don't be fooled, that is a VERY large demographic. Cave Diving, Tech and Europe where most fills are on the 4000psi plus psi. Yoke just doesn't stand up.

The OP didn't ask which was more prevalent. Again, I must assume the OP wants to know which is better. From a safety standpoint... DIN is better. Granted if you are in an area that won't offer a DIN rental take, make sure you own an adapter for those rare times.

---------- Post added April 13th, 2013 at 09:03 AM ----------

Rather than just claim I am wrong, how about backing your statements up with fact, I willing to listen.. Do you really believe that tanks in cave country are dove more than tanks in a rec setting,

I'll back up my statements after you back up yours. Yes, I do believe that tanks in cave country are used as much or more. We have no season. We dive year round. When it gets cold in the rest of the world, we get even more divers here. I have 17 tanks that I lend to a dive shop for rental. The dive shop also has about 40 sets of doubles they rent. Recently I went to that dive shop and 15 of my 17 tanks were rented for almost two weeks straight. And this was just my tanks. Who know how many other sets of doubles were rented.

But that really doesn't matter, your argument is a silly one. The orings aren't as good because they are used more? Really? Dude, the DIN orings are more than twice as thick and the surface area for the mating of the orings is also twice as thick.

You just listed 3 advantages above of a DIN regulator. If everything else was equal, that's enough safety factor to warrant DIN is better.
Now lets talk about your damaged threads argument.... Dude, if your dropping your 500 dollar reg on hard concrete, well then that's really not the regulator's fault. It's yours for not taking care of your gear. That's like saying if I drive my Jetta into a wall and the bumper is crushed, Volkswagon should have made a more sturdy bumper. I've owned 9 DIN regulators for the last decade. I've never once had to replace the threads.

Also, you do have a point, tank valves on DIN tanks are thin. But, again. I don't go dropping my tanks filled with a bazillion PSI on their valves, LOL.

And the "idea that cavers use them so they must be better" was a simple argument, but after your, "orings in yoke tanks fail more because they are used more" I thought I had picked my audience appropriately. I stand by that thought.

Please don't try to push that YOKE is more prevalent. It is only more prevalent because there are more recreational divers in the US, Carribean and certain other areas. There's a whole different demographic across the great pond where everything is DIN. And with their 4500psi tanks, it's necessary, because it's safer.

 

[diversteve]

go to Cave Country where every single tank at every single dive shop is DIN. It's a section of the country where we dive year round. Really? Less dives? That's funny.

Head to the technical operators in Pompano or Key Largo where 70% of the tanks are DIN. Less Dives Really? That's just silly.

I'm pretty sure that's a regional guess also. How many yoke divers are in SoFl? 200,000? 2 Million?

Good luck finding a DIN tank on any boat in any of the popular Caribbean dive destinations. A place like Roatan or Grand Cayman does more dives this year than all 2000 of your cave divers combined. All are yoke with exception of two tech operators - out of probably 50+ rec operators. Even the tech operator on Cayman - Divetech - has yoke tanks on their boat as standard equipment.

A place like Bonaire they likely do more dives in a week than your 2000 divers also. There's at least 20 operators, all have multiple boats. RecTek is the only remaining tech operation there afaik. And it's a subsidiary business at Habitat - where they load 4-5 dive boats full every day with yoke tanks.

And shore diving is the popular thing there - we dive there with about 6-8 yoke tanks loaded in the truck - daily. For 2 of us. There's probably several hundred other groups doing the same thing daily at the 80+ sites there. Let's be conservative and say it's only 200 - x4 tanks - that's 800 tanks per day. And that's really being conservative - the actual number is probably more like 2000 divers/day. The Scubaboard Invasion this summer - probably upwards of a 100 people - is being handled by 1 operator. Probably be un-noticed elsewhere on the island.

And let's not even start with all the cruise divers. And vacation divers.

Guys, if 2000 cave divers are using DIN, it's not for any reason except that it's safer.

This we can agree on. But you control your gear. Rental gear gets smashed, dropped, dragged across sand/rocks regularly - without the dust caps in place - if they still even have one. With yoke the outside of the yoke takes the abuse, with DIN you'll be filing/replacing threads.

I dive a lot in the Caribbean. I've never gotten on a boat and seen anything but yoke tanks in the racks for guest use. Every where I go I would have to make arrangements in advance for DIN tanks. At most recreational operators in the Caribbean, Hawaii, Central America, Mexico - I just show up with my yoke reg and fit it to a tank. It's expected by them that your reg is yoke. It's a section of the world where they dive year round. Really? Less dives? That's funny...

With the exception of Europe and cave country there is no other place in the world where DIN is found in greater numbers than yoke. Probably by a factor of 1000 to 1 - probably closer to 10,000 to 1. Look at any non-cave diving website - especially the generic ones like Scubatoys or Leisurepro. Count the number of yoke regulators offered vs. the number of DIN. That's probably close to your actual percentage of din vs. yoke usage. At least in this country which is all the OP is interested in.

The OP asked about the US/Caribbean. Not about limited experiences in cave country or SoFl. Plus I'd bet for every 1 DIN diver in Pompano, there's at least 50 nearby diving yoke. Add up the entire Florida coastline and that number is probably 5000 or more - daily.Key Largo really? Maybe the boats you've been on but all the tourist divers on all the tourist boats are diving yoke. Ask any of the bigger operators down there what tanks they fill/use predominantly. And not the tech operators since that's an equally small percentage of divers as a whole.

Actually, the OP just asked which was better PERIOD.

Actually he didn't. You interpreted it to mean that. Just like your interpretation from mostly diving in cave country is that DIN is predominant elsewhere - which it's not.

Which one and why? I have been looking for a new reg but seems like yoke is the more universal for the us and Caribbean.

Where does the OP ask which is safer? If anything he asked for which is more universal in usage - that's clearly, unequivocally yoke:

 

[Rich Keller]

DIN valves first appeared in the US when the industry was toying with the idea of using wrapped cylinders that could be filled to 5000psi but that idea never went anywhere. As Herman pointed out the connection point between metal and O ring is basically the same except the O ring on the DIN is larger so it could be argued that the O ring itself in the DIN could be less safe then a yoke. The DIN threads are also much more prone to damage from any kind of grit that may be present when you are attaching the reg to the valve. I have noticed on more then a few dives that I have run into this stuff called sand and it seems to get everywhere. If the OP is asking about recreational diving use I would go with a yoke connection.

 

[Luis H]

I started using DIN connections around 1972, when I bought some Poseidon tanks from a merchant sailor while I was living in Puerto Rico. DIN connection wasn’t even called DIN back then. I actually have a carbon copy of a letter I sent to Scubapro in 1977 asking if they had an adapter for the MK-5 to use the 5/8 European threaded connection. The response left me with the idea that they have never heard of it.

DIN is a good connection if it is taken care of and does not receive a lot of abuse. It is ideal for tech divers in fresh water. My observation is that tech divers tend to take care of their gear and don’t abuse it the way that vacation recreational divers do.

In addition to the thin walls on a DIN valve, the threads receive a lot of wear in a salt water environment. This is particularly true if you have blowing sand. For example in Crash Boat beach Aguadilla Puerto Rico (a popular dive site in PR). I clearly recall one dive about 40 years ago were some grit must have gotten on the threads and I didn’t notice it when I screwed the regulator. After the dive, the connection has been pressurized. I bled all the pressure out of the regulator but I could not unscrew the threads without the assistance of a wrench.

BTW, I started servicing regulator professionally at the local dive shop (in PR) in 1971. I do not abuse or over tighten a regulator.

Damage to the threads of a DIN connection will happen from wear in the long run, but can also happen from a single event were the user was not careful and allowed sand or grit to be ground into the threads when matting the connection. This can go un-noticed while mating the connection and the damage may not happen until you turn on the air pressure.

The rental fleets of scuba tanks in the Caribbean receive way too much abuse for DIN connections. Most tanks get used 7 days a week, every week of the year. In none of the resorts that I have been I have never seen a tank rinsed with fresh water.

DIN tank valve threads can hold a lot more salt water than the face of a yoke valve.

My impression is that the rental DIN tanks in a tech center are going to be cared for much better than other rental tanks and they are not going to get the amount of use and abuse that the other rental fleets get in the tropics.

If you have relatively new regulators (less than 10 or 20 years old) I bet the chrome in the DIN threads are in fairly good shape. A lot of my gear is 40 years old (some of it much older). My two sets of Poseidon double tanks are from 1957.

Most of the vintage (1950 to 1970’s) yoke connection valves and regulators I own are in relatively good shape. The chrome on the DIN connection threads is mostly gone and I have to be very careful when I use them.


Personally, I would never use a rental DIN tank unless it looked brand new. You can not inspect the back side of the female threads in the tank valve. That is the pressure carrying surface of the threads and that can get very rough and you can’t see it.


Just like any tool, there are pro and cons to everything. I like DIN connection for certain applications and I don’t see the need to point out that they do have some advantages. But the idea that a DIN connection is always superior is incorrect.


Saying that DIN is safer it is not only statistically wrong… it is a meaningless statement and can not be supported by the volume of safe dives occurring with either connection. If you look at the number of safe dives that occur every day in the Caribbean alone, the only conclusion from that data is that yoke connection is extremely safe. Both connections are extremely safe and there is no data that can say that one is relatively safer than the other.

The perceived safety is just that... a perception that is not based on any substantial facts. You are welcome to quote me any individual personal incident... and I will be glad to quote over 40 years of personal experience with both connections and I have never considered one safer than the other (I am also a mechanical engineer).

I have seen more human error associated with yoke connections, but in every instance it was related to inexperience of the user. Inexperience divers are mostly associated with yoke connections, which is a good thing, because yoke connections tend to be forgiving. Most errors can be easily corrected before the dive and they manifest themselves immediately with a blow O-ring.


And BTW, the O-ring on DIN connection (-112) is the exact same O-ring that is used on vintage yoke valves, before the new small O-rings valves were introduced (I think by Sherwood).


A few other historical trivia points:

DIN connection (actually the 5/8 treaded connection) has been popular in Germany and Sweden for a long time. But my observation is that the Italians, Brits, Spain and French used yoke to relatively recent. Relative time in my opinion is probably different than to other divers.

Cousteau used yoke on his 5000 psi tanks for a while. I have read that they had some issues with some of the 5000 psi titanium tanks, but I never read that they had issues with the yoke connections.

 

[Superlyte27]

I'm pretty sure that's a regional guess also. How many yoke divers are in SoFl? 200,000? 2 Million?

Good luck finding a DIN tank on any boat in any of the popular Caribbean dive destinations. A place like Roatan or Grand Cayman does more dives this year than all 2000 of your cave divers combined. All are yoke with exception of two tech operators - out of probably 50+ rec operators. Even the tech operator on Cayman - Divetech - has yoke tanks on their boat as standard equipment.

A place like Bonaire they likely do more dives in a week than your 2000 divers also. There's at least 20 operators, all have multiple boats. RecTek is the only remaining tech operation there afaik. And it's a subsidiary business at Habitat - where they load 4-5 dive boats full every day with yoke tanks.

And shore diving is the popular thing there - we dive there with about 6-8 yoke tanks loaded in the truck - daily. For 2 of us. There's probably several hundred other groups doing the same thing daily at the 80+ sites there. Let's be conservative and say it's only 200 - x4 tanks - that's 800 tanks per day. And that's really being conservative - the actual number is probably more like 2000 divers/day. The Scubaboard Invasion this summer - probably upwards of a 100 people - is being handled by 1 operator. Probably be un-noticed elsewhere on the island.

And let's not even start with all the cruise divers. And vacation divers.
This we can agree on. But you control your gear. Rental gear gets smashed, dropped, dragged across sand/rocks regularly - without the dust caps in place - if they still even have one. With yoke the outside of the yoke takes the abuse, with DIN you'll be filing/replacing threads.

I dive a lot in the Caribbean. I've never gotten on a boat and seen anything but yoke tanks in the racks for guest use. Every where I go I would have to make arrangements in advance for DIN tanks. At most recreational operators in the Caribbean, Hawaii, Central America, Mexico - I just show up with my yoke reg and fit it to a tank. It's expected by them that your reg is yoke. It's a section of the world where they dive year round. Really? Less dives? That's funny...

With the exception of Europe and cave country there is no other place in the world where DIN is found in greater numbers than yoke. Probably by a factor of 1000 to 1 - probably closer to 10,000 to 1. Look at any non-cave diving website - especially the generic ones like Scubatoys or Leisurepro. Count the number of yoke regulators offered vs. the number of DIN. That's probably close to your actual percentage of din vs. yoke usage. At least in this country which is all the OP is interested in.

The OP asked about the US/Caribbean. Not about limited experiences in cave country or SoFl. Plus I'd bet for every 1 DIN diver in Pompano, there's at least 50 nearby diving yoke. Add up the entire Florida coastline and that number is probably 5000 or more - daily.Key Largo really? Maybe the boats you've been on but all the tourist divers on all the tourist boats are diving yoke. Ask any of the bigger operators down there what tanks they fill/use predominantly. And not the tech operators since that's an equally small percentage of divers as a whole.
Actually he didn't. You interpreted it to mean that. Just like your interpretation from mostly diving in cave country is that DIN is predominant elsewhere - which it's not.

Where does the OP ask which is safer? If anything he asked for which is more universal in usage - that's clearly, unequivocally yoke:

Guys, you keep getting sidetracked. More Prevalent doesn't equal safer. Yes, Yoke is more prevalent. Because there are more recreational divers than tech divers. There are probably more divers here than in Europe. But just because there are more doesn't mean it's better. It just means there's more. Which is better APPLE or PC? Well, by your logic PC must be better because PC is dominated by their 95% market share.

The OP asked "which one and why".

The answer: DIN, BECAUSE IT IS SAFER - Herman's Quote, " DIN does have 2 major and one minor advantage. They are less likely to be rolled off and they will withstand a major strike without being knocked loose."

any other questions?

 

[616fun]

When I was DMing I would see Yoke o-rings blow regularly. Most of them would blow when the reg was charged, but I did experience a few cases of them letting go underwater. It made an impression on me, especially considering these failures occurred with new divers who haven't had experience to deal with such situations.

4 years ago I swapped to DIN only and dive pretty much exclusively with DIN equipped divers. In that time I've NEVER seen a DIN o-ring let go.

This is totally nonscientific and just my experience.

 

[Superlyte27]

When I was DMing I would see Yoke o-rings blow regularly. Most of them would blow when the reg was charged, but I did experience a few cases of them letting go underwater. It made an impression on me, especially considering these failures occurred with new divers who haven't had experience to deal with such situations.

4 years ago I swapped to DIN only and dive pretty much exclusively with DIN equipped divers. In that time I've NEVER seen a DIN o-ring let go.

This is totally nonscientific and just my experience.

I was a boat captain in Key Largo. Some days I ran a tech trip where the boat was filled with nothing but DIN tanks and rebreathers (which also have DIN tanks btw). Other days the boat was filled with recreational divers where nearly every tank was a yoke valve.

In that time, I HAVE seen a DIN oring not seat correctly, but I have NEVER seen a DIN Oring blow outright. I watched as people's personal tanks blew yoke O-rings at least once a week.
When I used to teach Open Water, I've seen tanks blow yoke o-rings on a fairly consistent basis. I now exclusively teach technical diving and I have yet to see a DIN Oring blow.

Again, not scientific at all, but if you've been in the diving industry enough, and been around both types of valves, you know which one is better. Argue all you want, you'll not change my mind.

 

[616fun]

I was a boat captain in Key Largo. Some days I ran a tech trip where the boat was filled with nothing but DIN tanks and rebreathers (which also have DIN tanks btw). Other days the boat was filled with recreational divers where nearly every tank was a yoke valve.

In that time, I HAVE seen a DIN oring not seat correctly, but I have NEVER seen a DIN Oring blow outright. I watched as people's personal tanks blew yoke O-rings at least once a week.
When I used to teach Open Water, I've seen tanks blow yoke o-rings on a fairly consistent basis. I now exclusively teach technical diving and I have yet to see a DIN Oring blow.

Again, not scientific at all, but if you've been in the diving industry enough, and been around both types of valves, you know which one is better. Argue all you want, you'll not change my mind.

No argument here

 

[The Chairman]

I don't like getting entangled. The DIN offers a much more streamlined profile moving through the water. The knob on a yoke tank is just asking for some mono to snag it. I remember a tech diver having to use a yoke adapter to be able to dive. They were just stroking along on the Speigle Grove, not making any progress. I saw their kick get stronger and faster and finally he broke from his frog into a hard flutter. I had finally gotten close to him and severed the line that the knob had snagged. Whhhhhhooooooooooooossssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he went. On the boat he complained about how there was a really strong current at one point on the dive.

BTW, I giggle every time I hear that DIN has a captured O-ring and yokes do not. Neither of them is captured. Both are facing o-rings designed for a static connection. The only difference is how the pressure is applied: internal screws or an external clamp.

Captured o-rings are found on the end of your hoses as they fit into the first stage. The best O-ring seal is the groove or barrel style that you find where your LP hoses connect to your second stage. Here is what they look like: