DIR and Pony tanks?

[MaxBottomtime]

CJ-62, read this first
http://gue.com/equipment/jj-hogarth.shtml
then ask questions. Many of the posters in this forum have spent a few thousand dollars on GUE classes and are reluctant to give out some information for free. At $300 minimum for each class, GUE is out of reach for many of us, but there is still information to be gained on the internet. The problem with your approach, and I don't believe it is intentional on your part, is that the questions you have posed are the very same that have been brought up by trolls seeking to start arguments. In the case of a 40 clipped off on the left, it is not called a pony because it is not used as a pony. It serves a specific need, deco gas only. For non-decompression dives you would not carry one. For planned deco dives you would carry one or more with the correct deco gas. You would never carry "spare" gas around with you, just in case. Part of the reasoning for Hogarthian, and later DIR gear configuration is to minimize the amount of gear you carry. You never take anything you don't need. Obviously a whistle of surface signal isn't going to take up much room in your pocket, out of the slipstream, but lugging an extra tank around when you have other viable options is not advisable. Doubles with an isolation manifold and your buddy represent a much better alternative. That is what DIR is about. Solving problems before they exist without coming up with some convoluted, adhoc solution like carrying extra gear, whether it's a pony, independant doubles or a Spare Air.

 

[mania]

. If the subject has been settled for you in a previous thread then please link the thread and say "please reference...".

But you can use the button "search" by yourself, can't you? Or you want everything givent to you without any effort from your side?
As it was already written - most of these questions have been asked before.
When I have a question i first search through SB or other web sites. If i get the answer I was looking for I don't see the point starting new thread.
Mania

 

[OE2X]

CJ what I'm getting the sense from other members is a bit of frustration towards you. You are given the answers (albeit they may seem simplistic to you) and yet you continue to belabor points without grasping the whole equation. It seems as if you want to reinvent the wheel, which for most of us that are in various stages of GUE training isn't necessary. What we don't hear is any trust that the advice or that the whole DIR method is viable. Many of the responders on this thread are highly trained and very talented and capable divers. It might serve you better to listen and think about their responses first before painting yourself as an internet victim. Here I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are seeking knowledge and not accusing you of trolling.

When and if you take DIRF you will understand why you wear the compass on your left wrist - because you drive the scooter with your right hand and cannot easily see it. While scootering may not be something you will ever do, it sets the tone for the configuration. The DIR formula is very strict and in many ways seems to be derived from highly advanced dives backwards. In other words each step in DIR is a building block for more advanced proceedures. If you take one out or alter it - as someone else aptly put, it has a ripple effect.

When I first took Fundies a year ago I had many questions like yourself. I too asked about pony bottles, got the answer and saw the logic behind it. Ponies are not used or needed because you and your team have planned your dive, figured out your gas needs and in the event of a failure can depend and trust on your other team member(s). Trust is a big part of the equation. In DIR we are no longer solo diving or diving with a buddy of circumstance. The people I regularly dive with, I know to within 100 psi at all times where they are at and that is without looking at their spg. We plan out even our most simple recreational dives. I can trust that in the event that I blow an O-ring that they will have more than enough back gas to get us safely to the surface.

As I put into practice much of what I had gotten out of DIRF, I find myself asking less about the why and more about how do you do a skill. I echo the sentiments of others on this board advising you to take DIRF. The answers you seek may become more obvious.

 

[HarryH97]

OEX2,
I think CJ just needs a little lovin and a hug. He may be a tough guy ex-marine and all and can go at it alone in figuring it all out with asking why, why, why. The why's are not the problem, it's just that the internet cannot convey all the nuances of how DIR fits together and its pretty simple to misinterpret something very simple-just like the pony as mentioned by Maxbottomtime. It's not a matter of semantics. The bottles we use serve a different purpose. The gas in a 40cf is not the same as what's on your back. And there's more to it, the size, the make/composition, the rigging of the bottle, the size of the bolt snap, on and on and on. That's just one component of many many components. What you need if you don't want to take a class is a mentor that can show you this stuff in a live face to face dialog above and below the water not email messages. Yes the questions, you ask are very basic and fundamental, and appear troll like. Some other options available free of cost to you.

-Laura James from fifthd organizes weekly Tweek meets where people such as yourself are inquisitive about DIR but afraid to ask. This is DIR in action, in the water and out of the water, working skills from basic 6 all to scooter, stages, etc... It's normally Wed or TH evenings either at Seacrest, West Seattle or Lake Washington (Leschi).
-You'll find DIR divers throughout the weekend through the Puget Sound willing to dive with those interested in DIR.
-I believe Joe Talavera welcomes a first day audit of his DIRF free of charge for those interested. Check with Mark about that.

Hope you are genuine and sincere about improving your diving and not just trolling. If you think the internet is a viable way to learn this or that it's hogwash that a class is the only way to learn this...well, the arrogance that you so despise is shining brightly in your own mirror.

Sincerely,
Harry

 

[ScubaDadMiami]

It is as simple as this. You want to keep the same basic rig for your diving, only adding specialized equipment along the way as needed. When you add this equipment, you want to avoid completely reconfiguring your stock equipment. You also don't want to add unneccesary equipment that adds drag and complication.

So, you start off with a single tank for recreational diving. If you have an equipment failure, you are only recreationally diving, so you can rely on your buddy's gas supply to get you back to the surface. You could carry a pony bottle if you really wanted to, but this isn't really needed for recreational kinds of diving since you will have gas available from a team member on the dive in an emergency. You are so close enough to the surface that you will need minimal additional gas to get back to the surface in the event of equipment failure; carrying a pony bottle adds more bulk than needed in this circumstance.

When you get into more advanced kinds of diving (overhead, decompression, etc.), just adding a pony bottle is not enough. Yes, it is better than nothing, but you should be going all the way with what you need rather than risking injury or death by now carrying insufficient reserves for this kind of diving. That means being able to access all of your gas from either of two regulators. At that point, you start using double tanks with an isolator manifold. You end up with access to more gas using this rig compared to a pony bottle. Whereas a pony bottle is unnecessary overkill in recreational diving, it is not enough for technical diving.

For efficient decompression, you add up to two more tanks (typically), worn on your side. If you had been carrying a pony bottle on the side up to this point, you would now have to switch to double tanks and get rid of the pony. Again, this is making a major change in your standard rig which you have used hundreds of times and know by instinct and memory. This is something to avoid.

If you start diving extreme depths and times, warranting even more gas, you then start using a stage bottle, also worn on the side. There are rules involved with how much of this to use and when so that you can return back from the dive alive. A stage bottle is not a just in case bottle like in the case of a pony bottle; it is used intentionally during the dive (otherwise, don't bring it due to the extra drag and bulk addiing unneccesary complexity on your dive). A pony would not cut it here at all.

In the end, if you start carrying a pony bottle for reserve, it can be done. However, this will make things so that you will be leaving this behind when you move on to more advanced diving down the road. Either get doubles with an isolator now or wait until you are ready, saving money by not adding the pony. That's the whole thing behind not getting one in the first place.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tom Yerian]

ABSOLUTLY NOT!! THEY ARE NOT USED IN DIR. BASIC DECO IS 50%@70fsw and 100% @ 20FSW. tHIS IS MIN YOU WOULD EVEN THINK ABOUT.

CAPT. tOM

 

[Tom Yerian]

PS.... FORGOT, I WAS DISTRACTED BY NEWS, MIN. SIZE TANK TO USE IS 40;S DEPENDING ON TYPE OF DIVE , DEPTH,DECO PROFILE, GAS USED ON BACK, ETC. THERE ARE MANY VARIBLES. THIS IS JUST A QUICK ANSWER. lAST THING IS THEY ARE SLUNG ON LEFT SIDE........CAPT. TOM

 

[radinator]

Capt. Tom, Please go to the bottom left key on your keyboard. Then go up two keys. Pretend there is an ant on that key. Squish it.

 

[salty]

Capt. Tom, Please go to the bottom left key on your keyboard. Then go up two keys. Pretend there is an ant on that key. Squish it.

ROFL !!!!!!!!!

 

[mer]

Why not Ponys with DIR: (Def: additional tank mounted to primary single tank with separate regulator system)
- Placement and mounting: often hard to reach valve, presents additional entanglement hazards
- Addressing failures: Does not address the most common failures of the tank/reg system. Regulator failures (first stage, second stage, hoses, face oring) are more common than failures of the valve (valve stem, burst disk, tank neck oring). With a pony system, if your regulator fails, you lose access to the gas in your main tank, if a reg fails on a doubles system, you can still access all your gas. However, you need adequate training in isolated-manifold doubles before diving them.
- Addressing low/out of gas situation: Stereotypically ponys are used for the "if you run out of gas" problems. However, this is a case of gear substituting for skills. With proper Minimum Gas Reserve planning for your team, and awareness of your pressure at all times, you are in a better place overall.
- While not DIR for reasons above, a 40CF pony would be a much better choice than the smaller 14CF or less tanks I see some using (just not enough gas).

GUE information and the internet:
- While the internet is a great place to exchange information and get informatin clarified, it is very difficult to do the system justice over the internet. Don't take it personally, but many of the questions newcomers to DIR ask are hard to answer b/c they are interrelated with other topics. Fundamentals is 2-3 very very full days to get across the basics of the philosophy and is filled with visuals not easily conveyable over the net.
- Please continue to ask questions and use the resources of past threads, but understand that the only way to fully appreciate the GUE system is to take the class and idealy frequently dive with others with GUE training.
- Also, Fundamentals will be the best ~$300 dollars you will ever spend on diving. The information in it will make you a safer diver if you listen with an open mind and even if you decided to not fully embrace the GUE system.