DIR: God's gift to diving or Hell spawn?

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MikeFerrara:
To be sure DIR isn't the origine of good overall technique. They didn't invent horizontal trim or the frog kick. But they've come up with some pretty cool stuff.

Off the top of my head...

Their standard gasses... Many long time trimix divers prefer heliair for a couple reasons. <explanation deleted>

The way they manage stages is pretty cool too although not relevant for every one.

Oh and one of the best one for recreational divers is their rock bottom concept whis is really an OW adaptation of the rule of thirds which is designed for overheads. No one else is teaching gas management this way that I know of.
I've said all along, DIR has it's place. Trimix, penetration diving is where their approach derived from and where it shines the best.

For the no-deco casual rec diver (oops, sorry, underwater tourist), the rock bottom concept equates to roughly 600-750psi on most profiles. Isn't it easier for all concerned to say, begin your ascent at 750psi? Most of my diving these days is on paid boats - I'm sure there's no GUE elements on most of them, yet this seems to be the number DM's are recommending these days. Not taking anything away from GUE - just seems like there may be more than 1 way to come up with a good answer... Sorry for the thread hijack...
 
gj62:
I've said all along, DIR has it's place. Trimix, penetration diving is where their approach derived from and where it shines the best.

For the no-deco casual rec diver (oops, sorry, underwater tourist), the rock bottom concept equates to roughly 600-750psi on most profiles. Isn't it easier for all concerned to say, begin your ascent at 750psi?

Except that it isn't enough on a dive to 100ft+. It might be simpler though.

after GUE shows you how to figure it they give you some baseline numbers to use for different depths. You slap it in your wet notes for quick reference and you're set.
Most of my diving these days is on paid boats - I'm sure there's no GUE elements on most of them, yet this seems to be the number DM's are recommending these days. Not taking anything away from GUE - just seems like there may be more than 1 way to come up with a good answer... Sorry for the thread hijack...

Next time one of those DM's recommends a rock bottom or turn pressure like that for you ask them how they came up with it.
 
MikeFerrara:
The leadership does set the tone. No doubt the GI3 is a real character along with those who chose to imitate him you don't get that stuff from JJ.
Completely different experience there... Ask JJ who is a stroke - see how he defines it for you...

I would think if there was the concept of live and let live, you wouldn't come up with a pejorative term (and it is used pejoratively by JJ too) to describe people who aren't like you.
 
MikeFerrara:
In science we often find only one truth in any one given subject. There may be multiple theories but in the end only one (if any) is true.

In religion and I'm no theologist but...it's almost a given that a devout practitioner will believe that his is the one true relgion.

Politics...the name says it all. Poly... meaning several and tics...meaning blod sucking creatures. Put together the word means many blood sucking creatures. There you have it. The one true way of politics.

Now in Engineering we don't expect there to be only one best way.

This might be where DIR fits in. There's no argueing that DIR won't help in a cave where you need to be sidemount to get in or on a commercial Job.

I disagree. Unless you're just a mindless drone there isn't any reason to spend any time or effort on it if you don't know the reasons. Without understanding the reasons for the pieces I don't see how you could understand the application and importance of the pieces. No, I think the reasons are essential right from the start.

The history of science is that nearly all theories are proven false. When I was in school I was taught that ALL life on Earth was dependent on photosynthesis. Dr. Ballard found clear proof that that was wrong and he wasn't even looking at that theory.

What if God DOES play dice with the universe?
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In religion, absolute devotion often just results in Holy Wars. In fact I would be hard pressed to find examples to the contrary.
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We are quite in agreement on polyticks, but that does not change the multiple parties and viewpoints, NONE of which have the complete answer.
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What is the old project manager saying? "In every project there comes a time when you must shoot the engineers and build the d**n thing."
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Funny, I keep seeing claims that DIR is best for ALL diving. How about a few reasonable qualifiers on that? Like nearly all recreational and rec/tech diving. As you said sidemount is an exception and so is commercial diving.
The devil is in the details and I suggest that DIR marketing should be a rigorously detailed as the diving system. Exagerated claims don't help.
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Can you really learn all the reasons why things are done a certain way from the begining? Even DIR divers won't sit through that much classroom without diving. Even if they did will they really understand a point that only becomes important way back in a cave until they have been there?
The point is that they can adopt the system and know that they won't have to make major changes when they learn, experience and understand more.
A DIR-F diver will never have as full an understanding of the system as a Tech2 diver and doesn't need to.

I learned a lot about pipes and pipe plugging before I ever tried to place a plug, but I learned 100 times as much out in the field plugging and unplugging pipes and getting the job done. I didn't learn it all at once and I didn't need to.

Of course the GUE focus on continuous learning, training and practice is a good thing. Probably the most dangerous thing is when a diver thinks they know it all and don't need to learn any more.

Most commercial divers go to school full time for 6 months just to reach the 'entry level' of commercial diving. Then they do something like 2 years as a tender (mostly tending but also diving) before qualifying as a full diver. Granted, there is a lot for them to learn and do besides diving but how many rec divers do you think do this much training in their whole life?
In the begining we (commercial divers) do things a certain way because the standards and the Boss say so. In time we have first hand experience and a much deeper understanding of WHY. Berfore I had a cut unbilical I did not have the same understanding of bailout systems and backup procedures that I do now. :eyebrow:

Enough for now, my brain hurts. :D
 
MikeFerrara:
Next time one of those DM's recommends a rock bottom or turn pressure like that for you ask them how they came up with it.
C'mon Mike - you're back to, "You have to be an expert if you want to dive" arguements. My guess is if they don't get into the details of average SAC rates, catastrophic loss of your buddy's breathing equipment, etc, the answer won't be good enough. No thanks, I'll pass, and enjoy my rec diving... Helluva lot safer than the skiing I've been doing...
 
gj62:
C'mon Mike - you're back to, "You have to be an expert if you want to dive" arguements. My guess is if they don't get into the details of average SAC rates, catastrophic loss of your buddy's breathing equipment, etc, the answer won't be good enough. No thanks, I'll pass, and enjoy my rec diving... Helluva lot safer than the skiing I've been doing...

If you call knowing how much gas it'll take you and a buddy to get back without asking a DM being an expert, ok.

Having enough to breath is without a doubt a minimum requirement for an enjoyable dive. LOL It's not tricky, har, taime consuming or anything else. Why don't you want to know it?
 
gj62:
Completely different experience there... Ask JJ who is a stroke - see how he defines it for you...

I would think if there was the concept of live and let live, you wouldn't come up with a pejorative term (and it is used pejoratively by JJ too) to describe people who aren't like you.

I've never heard or read JJ using the term. It's a GI3 thing I think and I know his definition. BTW he stole the term from some one else. LOL
 
MikeFerrara:
I've never heard or read JJ using the term. It's a GI3 thing I think and I know his definition. BTW he stole the term from some one else. LOL
Like I said, different experience. Besides, it's hard to separate GI from DIR or GUE - he is a frequent contributor to GUE with articles etc and is featured in the videos!

BTW - You aren't absolved from the responsibility in using a word simply because you weren't part of the etymology.
 
MikeFerrara:
If you call knowing how much gas it'll take you and a buddy to get back without asking a DM being an expert, ok.

Having enough to breath is without a doubt a minimum requirement for an enjoyable dive. LOL It's not tricky, har, taime consuming or anything else. Why don't you want to know it?
There is a reason that "recreational diving takes place at modest depths and within the "no deco limits". The reason is so there is direct access to the surface with little risk. In recreational diving safety stops are a precoution that can be done away with in an emergency allowing the troubled diver to go home. As we begin to plan and do more challanging dives there are many skill that must be developed together in a logical order.

--->recognize those words???
 
pipedope:
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In religion, absolute devotion often just results in Holy Wars. In fact I would be hard pressed to find examples to the contrary.

Absolute devotion doesn't cause wars. Wanting to force others to your devotions causes them.
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What is the old project manager saying? "In every project there comes a time when you must shoot the engineers and build the d**n thing."

Project manager shouldn't speak until spoken to and even then not unless they've been told ahead of time what to say. LOL
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Funny, I keep seeing claims that DIR is best for ALL diving. How about a few reasonable qualifiers on that? Like nearly all recreational and rec/tech diving. As you said sidemount is an exception and so is commercial diving.
The devil is in the details and I suggest that DIR marketing should be a rigorously detailed as the diving system. Exagerated claims don't help.

Point out some good recreational diving type examples and lets look at em.
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Can you really learn all the reasons why things are done a certain way from the begining? Even DIR divers won't sit through that much classroom without diving.

The GUE classes that I've seen gave reasons for everything they taught. It wasn't long or boaring. It flowed pretty well. Besides it's all pretty simple. In fact really simple which is one of the cool things about it.
Even if they did will they really understand a point that only becomes important way back in a cave until they have been there?

The answer is not to teach cave diving untill a cave class. I haven't seen anything in a DIRF that was cave specific.
The point is that they can adopt the system and know that they won't have to make major changes when they learn, experience and understand more.
A DIR-F diver will never have as full an understanding of the system as a Tech2 diver and doesn't need to.

DIRF is pretty much all basic rec diving stuff. They may see more applications for it and have a better appreciation for some of it when they get to tech 2 but they'll know the reasons related to rec diving and then some when they do a DIRF.
 
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