DIR/GUE OW class

[Kim]

One thing to remember is that the $1200 also includes an education in what gear you should be diving.

In the end I believe that the price will not be an issue when honestly compared to the same amount of instruction from other agencies and savings such as good gear choices. It's going to simply be a question of whether people with absolutely no knowledge to start with can be persuaded it's in their own interests to learn like this. That's going to be a very hard sell IMO.
Imagine if PADI or someone else turned round and said that in order to get a cert to dive you need OW, AOW, and Nitrox plus a few other bits and pieces. I don't think they'd get many takers either. It's not just a question of the money - it's a huge investment in time with no guarantee of passing either. Of course there will always be some who have the means and possibility to take such a course. However there also seems to be a chance that it will add to the somewhat 'elitist' perception of all things GUE in the mind of it's detractors as it seems fairly likely that it will simply stay beyond the reach of many younger, and interested people who would probably benefit a lot from the better instruction.
It's hard to see many students paying for something like this off their own bat.

Still - I applaud the attempt and wish them all the luck. Certainly when my own kids are old enough I would consider something like this for them if they wanted to join Dad underwater. Maybe that's how it will go at first - family connections/friendships providing enough of the 'raison d'etre' to convince people that it's not such a crazy thing to do.

 

[JeffG]

Maybe that's how it will go at first - family connections/friendships providing enough of the 'raison d'etre' to convince people that it's not such a crazy thing to do.

or maybe they will save their money for a trip and just mentor the divers up to speed.

 

[lamont]

One thing to remember is that the $1200 also includes an education in what gear you should be diving.

For my BOW course, I wouldn't have cared. I didn't know enough to make any of these kinds of choices. I didn't even know that initial gear mis-selection would be the issue that it is, and even if someone had told me, I don't think I would have really understood.

Honestly, you're going to have to put me down on the side of people who think that GUE is tilting at windmills with this one. Best of luck to them, though. It would be awesome if everyone else started to do this and it became the way things were done. I just don't see how you leap from $100-$200 BOW classes to a $1200 one though.

Personally, I'd slice it up into a $400 "BOW" course and $800 "AOW" course (or part 1 and part 2), with the end result being equivalent to GUE DIRF + WRSTC Nitrox/Rescue/AOW/Nav. That gets people in the door for $400, and you could also attract PADI, etc BOW/AOW students into the "GUE AOW" course after they're in a better position to know what they're looking for.

 

[MHK]

Honestly, you're going to have to put me down on the side of people who think that GUE is tilting at windmills with this one. Best of luck to them, though. It would be awesome if everyone else started to do this and it became the way things were done. I just don't see how you leap from $100-$200 BOW classes to a $1200 one though.

Personally, I'd slice it up into a $400 "BOW" course and $800 "AOW" course (or part 1 and part 2), with the end result being equivalent to GUE DIRF + WRSTC Nitrox/Rescue/AOW/Nav. That gets people in the door for $400, and you could also attract PADI, etc BOW/AOW students into the "GUE AOW" course after they're in a better position to know what they're looking for.

Lamont, and all others,

I want to address a comment that you made inasmuch as we hear this all the time. Specifically you wrote:

"That gets people in the door for $400"

I don't believe that it is the agencies obligation to "get people in the door". It's that mindset that has gotten the dive industry to where it is today. The willingness of the industry to sacrafice just about all principles to "get someone in the door" is the problem and it has no place in the solution.

Most anyone that knows about the dive industry has long ago realized that many shops made the decision to make education a loss leader. They know fully well that the more students you get in the door, the more mask, fins, snorkels, regulators, BC's et. al. you can sell. Accordingly, the "value" of the education has been relegated to a scheme to get divers in the door. There are planty of other agenices that want to "get people in the door". We firmly believe that our job as instructors, and our job as part of an agency is anything but "getting people into the door". That isn't our job. An instructor's job is to teach, to the best of our ability, divers to learn how to survive in an elemenent that they aren't meant to survive in absent training and equipment. Dilluting the education part of the equation to inflate the sales arm of the equation is a large part of the problem, and I doubt you'll see anyone at GUE contributing to that problem.

Hope that helps.

 

[lamont]

I don't believe that it is the agencies obligation to "get people in the door".

Understood completely and I respect that you aren't compromising your principles. I think the flip side of that, though, is that most people will get sticker shock, the GUE OW course will remain a niche and it won't have much impact on the industry as a whole.

I will, however, be extremely pleased to be proven wrong.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Are the GUE instructors still going to travel to a host town to put on an OW class... similar to how they have offered DIR-F in "remote" locations?

If so, that $1200 tuition is going to be eaten up real quick by the instructor's travel expenses. If that $1200 doesn't include the instructor's expenses, then the course will cost even more. When I tried to put together a DIR-F folks cried like babies over the $400. I don't envy the guys trying to sell this one. More power to 'em... but, man, it'll be tough!

If the instructor's don't travel, then the class will be severely limited to local students in about 10 US cities... not counting those towns in Florida, of course. I mean there would be very few guys that would belly up to the expense of cross country travel and week's worth of food and lodging in addition to the course's base tuition and equipment expenses. How many folks can afford to take all of that time off from work and spend perhaps three or four thousand dollars or more to do something like this? It just isn't feasible for anyone other than the truly most disgustingly fortunate individuals.

I think that in order for this to put pressure on the other agencies to raise their standards, then at least a few people will have to take the class.

 

[Kim]

I don't believe that it is the agencies obligation to "get people in the door". It's that mindset that has gotten the dive industry to where it is today. The willingness of the industry to sacrafice just about all principles to "get someone in the door" is the problem and it has no place in the solution.

With all due respect (and maybe 'getting people in the door' is a somewhat suggestive choice of words) but what is the point of a declared OW first diving class if it is not to train people to dive, thereby 'getting them in the door'? I completely agree that when all else is sacrificed for that end alone it creates a problem. What I fail to understand is why principles need to be abandoned to have something in smaller chunks as Lamont suggested. The standard of the chunks can be exactly the same, and the motive can simply be to allow more people access who want to learn to dive well from the beginning, but simply can't afford such a large chunk at once. I don't see what 'principle' is at stake here.
Or.......does GUE actually believe that all of this training is absolutely necessary before you can allow a new diver to go off and practice their skills on their own (of course in teams)?
Personally I think that what sets GUE apart is it's obvious quality of training, not the length of it's classes or how much is taught at once in each.

 

[jonnythan]

If I may, I think it's not to "get people in the door" of the shop to sell them BC's and retractors and boat diving classes.

This class exists to provide for those who are willing to pay real money for a real diving class. I think that the goal is for this to be like Fundamentals.. not something heavily promoted, but something that caters to those who are willing to seek out the best instruction and will pay a premium for something significantly better than the cheapo place down the street.

I don't expect that this will become overly popular, but I think it will attract enough people for it to grow and spread.

I think some people are missing the forest for the trees. It's not about what's necessary to stay alive underwater, it's not about marketing, it's not about principles, it's not about elitism. It's about providing the best dive training in the industry to those who want to commit their personal time and money to doing something better than the other guy with the low standards. These people exist, and they are the people taking Fundamentals and Tech 1 and Cave 2. The same types of people will be the ones in the GUE OW classes.

 

[Kim]

If I may, I think it's not to "get people in the door" of the shop to sell them BC's and retractors and boat diving classes.

This class exists to provide for those who are willing to pay real money for a real diving class. I think that the goal is for this to be like Fundamentals.. not something heavily promoted, but something that caters to those who are willing to seek out the best instruction and will pay a premium for something significantly better than the cheapo place down the street.

I don't expect that this will become overly popular, but I think it will attract enough people for it to grow and spread.

I think some people are missing the forest for the trees. It's not about what's necessary to stay alive underwater, it's not about marketing, it's not about principles, it's not about elitism. It's about providing the best dive training in the industry to those who want to commit their personal time and money to doing something better than the other guy with the low standards. These people exist, and they are the people taking Fundamentals and Tech 1 and Cave 2. The same types of people will be the ones in the GUE OW classes.

I don't think anyone doesn't realize that. I think we are simply asking why it's not possible to do the same thing in smaller pieces. :06:
By the way....it does appear to be something about principles according to MHK - not that I see anything wrong with that.

 

[TSandM]

I don't think there's any doubt in anybody's mind (including, probably, GUE's) that this will start small. But if GUE is willing to support it through the days when it IS small, they may see it do just what DIR-F has done. Enough word of mouth, and a program will grow.

I do really enjoy the fact that people from GUE have taken the time to write here about what they are doing, and what their plans are, rather than the rest of us just idly speculating.