Dispelling scubaboard myths (Part 1: It is the instructor not the agency)

[RyanT]

If you are going into research, you pick a research school if you want a teaching school with emphasis on teaching, you will get professors who are more into teaching than publishing papers.

For a large majority of students in the U.S., this is not how it works. Many kids pick colleges based on the fact that their parents went there, or they have been life-long fans of the football team. Alternatively, lots of students pick the local state University based on reduced costs. I've steered lots of talented students into research fields and they didn't even know this was an option when they started college.

I think this speaks to the OP's point that, while it would be great for every potential student to interview instructors, many just wouldn't even know what questions to ask. I'm a big advocate for finding the right instructor for the individual. I can imagine how difficult it would be for the average person, who decides to take up diving, to figure out what a good instructor looks like for their OW course.

 

[rhwestfall]

@Jim Lapenta wrote an excellent book including the "interview" process...

I've let folks borrow it who are considering diving.

 

[Wookie]

First off, I would argue that PADI (used only because it was used above, most agencies are the same) is not the Harvard of diving, but the State University system of diving. A good, standard education system, where you will receive a good standard education, but nothing fancy. I would then argue that a degree from Harvard is more valuable than a degree from a state education system not for what you learn, but for who you meet, and the contacts you make. If you don't understand this, it becomes most apparent in your late 40's when you want to break the $250,000 dollar a year salary barrier.

Second, I would argue that any student rating system is flawed from the very definition. If a student likes a professor, it's probably because, while they may have learned something, they liked them because they weren't challenged in the class. IMO, University isn't where you go to get educated on a topic, although admittedly I never attended a regular matriculated 4 year school (although I have more than one Bachelor's degree), University is where you go to learn to handle the day to day BS of the next 35 years of mind-numbing slave wages. That includes putting up with the bad bosses and the bad coworkers and the bad work situations and the bad spouses. As well as the good spouses and the good bosses, etc. So a program highly rated by the students is probably worthless. Likewise, dive training that doesn't challenge every student individually to excel, while teaching something, is not an excellent system.

I say that the instructor is the only person who can challenge a student. A system that requires mastery of skills, which is the majority of systems, while allowing 8 students to be taught by one instructor, is adequate, but does no favors to the student. This, by the way is most programs. I single out no one. It is the State University way, adequate but nothing special, and reasonably priced. But if you want to be an excellent diver, you must seek out those few instructors that probably won't even take you, because you won't appreciate their efforts. Those few instructors tend to gravitate towards more esoteric training agencies, the Ivy Leagues, if you will, of scuba education. Sure, some stay with their state universities and just do an outstanding job, but they have a hard time, as the training agency may only allow mastery of a skill and not excellence. Some students are only capable of scraping by. Should they be denied an education? Not at all, but they need an instructor who can teach each student individually to their capability.

So, it's the instructor AND the agency. But I do wholeheartedly agree witht he premise laid out in the OP.

 

[Bobby]

I believe one of the problems with dive instruction is that we don't have a resource like Rate My Professor in diving. The boards don't allow it because it is bashing or attacking the instructor. The agencies close ranks, especially if the instructor produces a lot of certs, and protects their instructors. It takes a high profile situation to actually get an instructor booted.
My wife is a professor and she is proud of her ratings. It is easy to know which professors have easy classes because that is what they get for reviews. My wife works very hard to make her classes tough and fair and it shows in her reviews. She is at a 50/50 school so she is expected to teach to a high standard and maintain research. She chose this path because she believes that research keeps the professor current and makes them a better teacher. She also cares about teaching as much as she does her research and wants the next generation of scientists to be better than she is.
If only we could get that in scuba diving instruction. Nice wish, however I don't believe it will ever happen. There have been issues in instruction that I've personally made a case for decades to change, the agencies and many instructors recognize the problems, however there are always many convenient excuses for not fixing them. Liability won't allow it, too hard to reeducate instructors, etc., etc., etc. add nauseam. The industry (business) is focused on new certs. instead of quality and retention. The question keeps being asked, why are new divers not coming into the sport? Simple they get a taste and find that it is a mess and they go on to other things. Their parents were in the sport and guide them away because they got a bad taste. Again it is the same long list of reasons that keep being ignored and the solution is always to make it easier and faster. Reality is that this sport requires life support to live and enjoy. If we don't teach it to the level of skill and comfort that it deserves people will simply not move forward, they will go on to something else.

 

[RainPilot]

This is always the Catch 22 of the sport, that those who really need to have an idea on how to pick a good instructor (the novice OW candidate) often have no clue that they need this, with no realistic way to ever change that. For them, the agency is an important factor since they don't know what they don't know, so at least a reputable name on the shop window is of some benefit to them.

Once they progress a little, they often realise where they have shortcomings, mostly from diving with better trained divers, and then the question of where to go for remedial/further education comes up. Then, it is very definitely the instructor ability / approach they need to look at, not the name on the window.

As an instructor, I give the very best course I can give within my limits of knowledge and ability. I have chosen agencies to teach for based on my own philosophy and how well their standards can integrate with that. At one point I could teach for 3 agencies (2 now) but the course was 99% the same regardless of which card you wanted at the end. In my case, it was definitely the instructor not the agency, for whatever good that was.

As Andy has stated, there are those who people go to regardless of the agency. If I want to learn wreck diving, I go to the Chatterton's and the Davis' of the world, I don't give a RPH which agency issues my cards as long as they are recognised afterwards.

Same with most other speciality diving, like CCR, SM etc etc.

The kind of people who are looking on SB for advice on their continuing or initial training, are the kinds of people for whom the "instructor not agency" advice is valid. For the VAST majority of divers out there, they will get generally acceptable training from most any agency / instructor that they choose. For most of them, that choice will be down to finances and/or time.

 

[CT-Rich]

Having come from an education background, the idea that students pick a school because of parents or a team is ridiculous. Most students pick a school because one of two things, cost or marketing. Students of limited means will price shop to find the best perceived value. Mostly they equate the class as an ends to the means. “I am going to Coz for my honeymoon and I hear they have great diving.”

Or they see a Groupon for cheap classes. This is how most people find driving schools. Really, a OW class is just a learners permit to find out if diving is something you want to toss a lot of time and money at.

A good instructor will generate a positive buzz for referralstudents, business at the shop he is affiliated with and advanced training. The idea that a student is going to put a lot of time into researching is not realistic. They will walk through a couple of shops that convenient to their needs and choose the one that meets their perceived needs (cost, schedule, location).

The purpose of the agency is to ensure the industry presents a minimum standard to limit the attrition of new divers. A scary first outing is guaranteed to get rid of a potential customer base. Advanced training is a way of keeping customers engaged in the sport.

When I was trained, 12 weeks of classes and three open water dives and you were on your own. Finding buddies and things to do in the water were up to the diver. I am sure most of my classmates, although well trained dropped diving pretty quickly or really got into it with little in between.

The agencies are basically franchising the training if you go to PADILLA you will get the Pizza Hut training, solid but unspectacular knowledge of diving. Some of those huts will have cleaner bathrooms, better decor and expanded menus, possibly really great takes on what pizza should be. But they need to at least offer okay, safe to eat pizza, because otherwise it becomes chipotle where every meal is a spin of the wheel....

 

[daduls]

I'm a big advocate for finding the right instructor for the individual. .

This, because no matter how great we think we are, all people listen, learn, and retain in their own way. The best instructor for me may not be the best for the next. Some onus lies with the pupil and ultimately the relationship of pupil to instructor.

Some students are only capable of scraping by. Should they be denied an education? Not at all, but they need an instructor who can teach each student individually to their capability.

It just can't be boiled down to point the finger at the instructor. It's an adult sport.

 

[rhwestfall]

otherwise it becomes chipotle where every meal is a spin of the wheel....

A plaza here has a Chipotle and a MASH Urgent Care, right next door to each other...Coincidence?

 

[RyanT]

I believe one of the problems with dive instruction is that we don't have a resource like Rate My Professor in diving. The boards don't allow it because it is bashing or attacking the instructor. The agencies close ranks, especially if the instructor produces a lot of certs, and protects their instructors. It takes a high profile situation to actually get an instructor booted.
My wife is a professor and she is proud of her ratings. It is easy to know which professors have easy classes because that is what they get for reviews. My wife works very hard to make her classes tough and fair and it shows in her reviews. She is at a 50/50 school so she is expected to teach to a high standard and maintain research. She chose this path because she believes that research keeps the professor current and makes them a better teacher. She also cares about teaching as much as she does her research and wants the next generation of scientists to be better than she is.
If only we could get that in scuba diving instruction. Nice wish, however I don't believe it will ever happen.

This!

 

[RyanT]

Having come from an education background, the idea that students pick a school because of parents or a team is ridiculous.

Having grown up in the south where football is religion, and having spent my entire professional career in academia, I can tell you it's unfortunately not ridiculous. I talk to students every semester and ask them about their decisions in choosing a University.