Dive boat operators face charges of illegally feeding sharks in state waters

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Honestly Netdoc, based on how I've read your responses, until a shark invites you over for a beer and some conversation, I'm not convinced that you'll consider any evidence contrary to your beliefs as being reliable.
Then you missed the point. I'll try combing my hair differently, so you can actually see my point. A number of people have CONCLUDED that sharks have already been trained and that Randy Jordan is the only one responsible for this training. I have suggested that we can't make that leap of faith at this point. Apparently, the first study you cited agrees with this assessment:
Learning is also discussed in relation to ecotourism and fisheries. Findings indicated that these activities may lead to conditioning of sharks and that considerable effort should go into investigating what impact this could have on the shark species involved.

BTW, good find on a real scientific paper that addresses these issues if only to raise additional questions.

As for having a beer with a shark: I'm game. Whoops. Bad choice of words.
 
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OK. Here is an anecdotal indication of intelligence...and Good Observation is the foundation of good science...so if you agree this is indicative of shark IQ, then the next step would be to see if there was a way to recreate this type of a mental exercise for a shark, and how to test it....

A year or two ago, Jim Abernethy told me a story about the 14 foot Tiger shark he calls Emma. If you have not yet heard about Emma, this is a shark that has "known" Jim for over 7 years now, and a shark that often follows his boat when it sees it ( I suppose that is another issue to test).
When Abernethy has Bait crates down on the bottom ( Tiger Beach, Bahamas), it will bring in many big tiger sharks and bulls, nurses and reefies....the Tigers on the top of the pecking order....What is interesting from the shark learning perspective, is that when Emma sees Jim, she ignores the bait crate, and swims over to Jim, and then stays with him pretty much as long as he has air for.

Years ago, Jim began cleaning her parasites off of her, and also removing fishing hooks in her mouth...Emma learned that any time she swam over to Jim, he would clean her, and help get rid to the nasty hooks that she clearly did not like having in her mouth....Here there is the basis of the potentially instinctive symbiotic relationship sharks are pre-wired for with cleaner fish--but it clearly has evolved far beyond an instinctual interaction, as it requires Emma to recognize JIm from all other divers, and to communicate to him what she wants....and to put up with some considerable pain, in order to have hooks removed. And then there is the hanging out with Jim, that could go on for an hour and a half, rather than the 5 minutes a cleaner fish might be involved....Where Emma just swims next to Jim, and sometimes plays tag and grab the camera and let Jim chase me ( like the family dog).
The bigger story here, was one situation where Emma came up to Jim with a huge hook embedded deeply way back in her mouth, behind the hinge in the jaw...so far back in, that to remove the hook, would require JIm to stick his arm way back into Emma's mouth. This was nothing like the normal hook removals, where the hooks were close to the sides, and no sticking your head in the lion's mouth was required.
So, there was Emma, swimming along side by side with Jimmy, and she wanted this hook out....Jim is very upset over how horrifying this hook situation is....and what would happen to Emma long term if this huge hook could not be removed.....After a few minutes, they swim over this big coral head, still side by side, and Emma stops, and opens her jaws wide, and bites down on the big coral head...and then is still....basically showing Jim that she will not be "biting" his arm, if he can get his arm in to remove the hook....Which, Jim does in a heart beat...and the hook was so big, it actually tears a big hole as he removes it, which he would later film, and then show in later stages as it heals. When Jim succeeded in getting the big hook out, and then moved away from Emma's mouth, and she knew he was done, she then let go of the coral head.....As far as thinking and learned behavior, I can think of some dentists that would tell you of kids or even some adults that reacted less intellectually from pain in their mouths when the dentist had his hand deep inside :)

To me, this is a story that shows anecdotal evidence of learned behavior, and of complex problem solving, and of complex communication.
If you see the shots of Emma coming up to Jim and giving him a "kiss" on the cheek, there is something of an "expression" on her face, and a light of sorts in her eyes....that does not look like the mindless image of a shark feeding at a cage...it looks more like the face of a dog, playing...with Jim.

The video below of the ABC Nightline piece shows the interaction with Emma and Jim, and to me, there does appear to be a connection beyond food or bait...and even beyond "just" cleaning.
[video]http://content.jwplatform.com/previews/j6GADY3Z-n5tqcd38[/video]

I don't think this equates to dolphin intelligence, but if you listen to a few dozen of the unique encounters like this Jim has had with Emma, then I think it paints a picture of a Shark with a far more acute intelligence than is assumed by the viewers of Discovery Shark Week, or by NetDoc or by Fisherman :)


Also...for the purposes of this thread....I think this speaks well for a possible future for Emerald's Shark interaction off Jupiter....if good observation, and SCIENCE, can assist in figuring out the best way to get sharks to LEARN what divers in the water means...and to learn HOW to get fed if they want to....and a host of related issues, it would be my expectation that the concept of the "more intelligent Shark" could be a path toward better scuba diving experiences off of Palm Beach/Jupiter, and much better understanding by humans of how we should or can interact with sharks.....and may go a long way to assist in ending the mindless slaughter of sharks by some commercial fishing elements.
 
Dan, I applaud your near 180 degree turn in how you view shark feedings. You went from suggesting that you would do harm to Randy if anyone got hurt to taking a step or three back to look at what we don't know.

We don't know a lot.

We don't know a whole lot.

Drawing conclusions either way is contraindicated by this and is why I'm on the fence about critter feeds. It's why I'm so skeptical about all these wild claims about how smart sharks are.
 
Dan, I applaud your near 180 degree turn in how you view shark feedings. You went from suggesting that you would do harm to Randy if anyone got hurt to taking a step or three back to look at what we don't know.
I do get worked up about some things that I think could have serious ramifications to my friends....but I don't think, and I hope, that I made no direct personal threats to Randy. If memory serves, it would have been more like suggesting that if someone not on a feed dive was hurt by a shark, "someone" would hold Randy responsible.... I don't think I was making the direct threat....If I did, hopefully Randy will accept my apology, and also take into "consideration", that this is potentially a MAJOR CHANGE to diving in the Jupiter, Juno and WPB areas.....I say potentially, because none of us--not the Scientists, not Randy, Not Jim Abernethy, not you or I, KNOW whether or not a future attack will ever happen as a result of the feedings.

After the sudden awareness of the issue that came on over me, and several others in this thread, my knee jerk reaction was to switch to researching the issue.....The science articles Halcyon Daze offered did alot to change my mind that an attack on some novice diver was not imminent.
I spoke to Abernethy, and he was saying he thought that Randy's feeding would put NO divers outside of their feeds at risk. I don't know if he and Randy speak much, but Abernethy was very supportive of Randy and what he was doing.

So after even more reading, I had to change the way I am reacting to this issue.

It may be that what Randy is doing may be a wonderful thing as it evolves in the future...the biggest NEGATIVE, is that it was Randy doing something that MIGHT HAVE HAD and impact on others, "others" that did not want this impact on their diving safety, relaxation, and Zen :) .....This has not changed, but this is more of an issue of Randy not following "group rules*" or normative behavior... behaviors which could upset the group, but not necessarily mean any bad thing will happen ( * by group rules I mean social taboos....Most obvious would be incest or infanticide--but among divers in the last 50 or 60 years, not feeding the sharks was pretty much a a taboo activity. And no, I am NOT comparing Randy to someone that engages in incest....There is a need to explain "unspoken group rules" and taboos--these don't typically need to be even discussed--they are taken for granted. I think we all just took for granted, that no diver would ever be purposely feeding the sharks).

I can only hope Randy will be open to the ideas of the scientists on what might be better techniques to use for feeding, to prevent frustration levels from causing erratic behavior in low pecking order sharks.
And maybe some day, Randy's efforts off Jupiter will pay dividends, and major gains on shark behavior and conservation ecology will be the result.....We can only hope.
 
I do get worked up about some things
Is this a merely anecdotal observation or do you have a study to back it up? :D :D :D
 
I've got an experiment going on right now... I'll get back to you as soon as I figure out if you're trainable. :D
 
Oh I can tell you they are trainable, we got a group of free divers down here a few years back and they tend to trail their catch 50 feet behind them. Now after you fire a speargun off weather you shoot a fish or not there is a good chance a shark will show up, in the past we did not have that problem.
 
Sharks yes, divers?????
 
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