Dive shops and training: the disconnect with reality

[idocsteve]

Steve, you're doing exactly the same thing you are accusing gcbryan of.

Ok, Sas, I'll give you that.

BUT

I at least attempted to give reasons for my retractor preferences and how they are useful and possibly superior in everyday applications for the recreational scuba diver.

 

[AndyNZ]

Most of the issues regarding dive training and the issues involving dive shops have been discussed but I think the biggest issue is just the disconnect with reality for the newer diver. It's kind of a lack of respect or a disillusionment that comes shortly after the OW training process. This can't be good for dive shops, instructors or the industry as a whole.

Why don't you open a new dive shop in your area so you can actually make a difference?

Whinging about it won't make any difference, put your money where your mouth is and qualify as an instructor so that you can do things differently... the world is changed by people who believe they can change it, with the courage to stand up and do things that need to be done. Not by people on the internet.....

 

[idocsteve]

Why don't you open a new dive shop in your area so you can actually make a difference?

Whinging about it won't make any difference, put your money where your mouth is and qualify as an instructor so that you can do things differently... the world is changed by people who believe they can change it, with the courage to stand up and do things that need to be done. Not by people on the internet.....

Wait, what?

What abut dive shop owners and instructors who post on obscure internet message boards?

 

[Sas]

Ok, Sas, I'll give you that.

BUT

I at least attempted to give reasons for my retractor preferences and how they are useful and possibly superior in everyday applications for the recreational scuba diver.

I disagree that they are useful and superior but there are pieces of my kit that I get a lot of hell for (mostly, my ankle weights ), but it's really no big deal to me as I don't care if other people think I'm dumb as long as I am comfortable. So really, get over it that a bunch of us don't like your retractors.

With retractors, I have seen *many* times people getting the string entangled with other bits of their gear. That's a big problem for me.

I also don't have anything I need to put on a retractor. My backup torches clip off to the shoulder d-rings on my harness and lie underneath some bicycle tubing. My camera has a bolt snap that I bolt snap it to my shoulder d-ring. My main torch I either hold in my hand for the whole dive (but has the option to clip it off) or if I am lucky I have a cannister light on loan with a goodman handle and it is threaded onto my harness. My SPG I can clip off onto my shoulder or hip d-ring.

Another thing with retractors is that often people forget to lock them or unlock them and this can cause whatever it is to fall away from them and bang on the ground or into something.

I used retractors on my primary light, my camera and also an air integrated console computer that I used to have. Absolute PITA in my experience.

But to each their own. Buddy has them on cameras, his torch and I think a couple of other things now and again. And I make fun of him about it because that is what buddies are for.

 

[idocsteve]

With retractors, I have seen *many* times people getting the string entangled with other bits of their gear. That's a big problem for me.

Another thing with retractors is that often people forget to lock them or unlock them and this can cause whatever it is to fall away from them and bang on the ground or into something.

I used retractors on my primary light, my camera and also an air integrated console computer that I used to have. Absolute PITA in my experience.

Your posts make a lot of sense to me, Sas.

Maybe we can dive together sometime and we can compare techniques and gear/rig configurations?

 

[Sas]

Your posts make a lot of sense to me, Sas.

Maybe we can dive together sometime and we can compare techniques and gear/rig configurations?

Sure, if you're ever over this way or vice versa, it would be fun

 

[AndyNZ]

Wait, what?

What abut dive shop owners and instructors who post on obscure internet message boards?

Do you mean the ones who are trying to put food on the table by selling courses and equipment? Nah, surely not.

It cracks me up, people will walk into an electrical store for a new TV and not blink an eyelid when a salesperson tries to upsell them into a crap product that they have 300 of in the storeroom taking up space, but then will complain that a dive shop sells them something they find out six months later that they don't need.

All salespeople are the same. You wouldn't buy a second hand car without educating yourself about what you are buying..... so why is it the dive shops fault that consumers don't educate themselves before buying dive gear???? :cool2:

Let's ignore the fact that a lot of dive shops are locked into preferential supplier agreements with particular wholesalers, and can't offer a wider range of options....

 

[Sas]

Let's ignore the fact that a lot of dive shops are locked into preferential supplier agreements with particular wholesalers, and can't offer a wider range of options....

And a few other things like mininum pricing and so on (illegal in at least Australia and the US), which are not found in every industry. And also the fact that dive shops make a big deal of equipment being "life support". I know my telly isn't going to kill me but dodgy dive gear might, dive shops really exaggerate this aspect. They also try to make "friends" with you and get you to join their club, which I've never had in any other type of store I've been into. So, there are a few things that can make dive shops different.

I agree that upselling happens in most industries so I don't care when dive shops do it (well I find it annoying, but just no different to anywhere else). But the smart ones know the people that don't want upselling. Anyone who is decent at retail knows which customers not to give a sales pitch too, for example.

 

[AndyNZ]

And a few other things like mininum pricing and so on (illegal in at least Australia and the US), which are not found in every industry. And also the fact that dive shops make a big deal of equipment being "life support". I know my telly isn't going to kill me but dodgy dive gear might, dive shops really exaggerate this aspect. They also try to make "friends" with you and get you to join their club, which I've never had in any other type of store I've been into. So, there are a few things that can make dive shops different.

Which in reality is no different than second hand car dealers.

I'm not claiming that dive shops are perfect.

I guess my point is that the thread is called a "disconnect with reality". The dive shops have their reality, they have bills to pay, they have constraints on what they can sell, margins on some products are lower than in other sales situations, there is "market pressure" to underprice courses that then results in having to overprice equipment to compensate....

... anyone who wants to criticise should be prepared to step up to the plate and try and do something different/better. I wonder how long the OP's ideology will last under the barrage of bills and expenses that most dive shops get in the post every month.

I've seen many people who think "they can do it differently" and buy into a dive shop. Generally, the ideology lasts for the first summer... when winter hits, and course numbers drop, which means gear sales drop.... they then start discounting training further to get people in the door. By the end of the first winter, if they are still in business, they are operating hand to mouth, month by month, desperately doing anything that will try and keep their business afloat for the summer with some hope of surviving the next winter. They will cut corners, they will buy cheap product hoping to sell it at a higher margin.

I'm not saying it is right, but this is the dive shop's reality. You can't lay the blame entirely on them for what they are doing. For example, why is training so underpriced?? It's because that is what the consumer demands.... cheaper and quicker. That is what generates the vicious cycle of decline for dive shops. So to then complain that they sell rubbish product.....

FWIW, my OW students pay me $1000 for their course - that *just* about covers my costs... so how on earth can a dive shop that charges $299 or less make any money at all????

To get better service in the shops, consumers need to (a) be prepared to pay more for training, and (b) be prepared to educate themselves rather than trust a sales persons opinion.

 

[Sas]

Which in reality is no different than second hand car dealers.

I didn't know they had RPM or had clubs though? I know each industry is different, and I'm not saying the dive industry is worse than any other, just that it is.. different in some ways.

I guess my point is that the thread is called a "disconnect with reality". The dive shops have their reality, they have bills to pay, they have constraints on what they can sell, margins on some products are lower than in other sales situations, there is "market pressure" to underprice courses that then results in having to overprice equipment to compensate....

I am aware of this but blatent attempts to rip me off as well as them actually lying about certain things is poor business practice, whatever the business and whatever the bills they need to pay.

... anyone who wants to criticise should be prepared to step up to the plate and try and do something different/better. I wonder how long the OP's ideology will last under the barrage of bills and expenses that most dive shops get in the post every month.

I'm in an independent club. I try to help there as much as I can, as I think independent clubs are a much better place to get gear advice, training and just in general fair prices on dive trips. I don't really see the need for LDSs: though they are a nice to have.

I've seen many people who think "they can do it differently" and buy into a dive shop. Generally, the ideology lasts for the first summer... when winter hits, and course numbers drop, which means gear sales drop.... they then start discounting training further to get people in the door. By the end of the first winter, if they are still in business, they are operating hand to mouth, month by month, desperately doing anything that will try and keep their business afloat for the summer with some hope of surviving the next winter. They will cut corners, they will buy cheap product hoping to sell it at a higher margin.

I think that means there is oversupply in the market then and that consumers should not be expected to prop up stores by buying highly overpriced gear in order to prop up a failing business. I have bills to pay too, something dive stores who have bitched at me don't seem to get. I have bills to pay so I need to get good prices on gear.

I'm not saying it is right, but this is the dive shop's reality. You can't lay the blame entirely on them for what they are doing.

I only have a huge issue with dive stores being dishonest. I.e. lying about warranties and so on. For example, I bought a second hand computer off a dive shop. It was Scubapro and I asked if even though I was not the original owner would the warranty transfer to me? They said 'yes'. This went against my own research but they were very insistent. In the end when I had a falling out with that store I discovered that was absolute BS and when the battery died I was not covered. Luckily another store thought it was funny I'd stood up to the other store (in unrelated matters) and sent it in for me to be repaired for free. But yea, there is no excuse for such blatent lying. That is only one of many examples I have where I have been fed absolute rubbish by the store I did my certification with.

For example, why is training so underpriced?? It's because that is what the consumer demands.... cheaper and quicker. That is what generates the vicious cycle of decline for dive shops. So to then complain that they sell rubbish product.....[

FWIW, my OW students pay me $1000 for their course - that *just* about covers my costs... so how on earth can a dive shop that charges $299 or less make any money at all????

To get better service in the shops, consumers need to (a) be prepared to pay more for training, and (b) be prepared to educate themselves rather than trust a sales persons opinion.

I am always happy to pay a lot for training personally. And I think I've got B down pat now that I have a bit more knowledge about how the dive industry operates. But for new divers it is hard.