Dive shops and training: the disconnect with reality

[scubafanatic]

Steve, you're doing exactly the same thing you are accusing gcbryan of.

People like different gear and neither should be criticised for it.

I think retractors are completely and utterly useless and I got rid of all of them on my kit and much prefer it that way so I think everything in your last post is completely not applicable to me (or anyone else who doesn't like them). My buddy likes them though and finds a use for them. Different strokes for different folks.

People just need to get over the fact that others use gear they do not like or do not like gear that they use themselves and not take it personal.

...I consider my 'retractor years' (back in the day) kinda like the 'terrible twos' of childhood, an almost inevitable 'newbie' phase most are destined/doomed to go through, but in a perverse way, I do want dive shops to stay in business for my own selfish reasons (to do my fills and sponsor/arrange my dive trips) so the more worthless doo-dads/crap the clueless crowd buys, the more revenue the shops receive, keeping them alive for MY purposes. Also, I've been known to use reverse psychology on other divers to help them 'see the light', namely let them make their own mistakes, don't stand in their way, let them dig their own holes, after they've done that a few times, a level of humility sinks in, and they become MUCH more receptive to the voice of reason/experience. I won't do anything to really deliberately endanger another diver, but will let them waste their $, configure their gear in a poorly planned manner and the resulting frustration tends to lead to more open minds in the end.

 

[Sas]

...I consider my 'retractor years' (back in the day) kinda like the 'terrible twos' of childhood, an almost inevitable 'newbie' phase most are destined/doomed to go through, but in a perverse way, I do want dive shops to stay in business for my own selfish reasons (to do my fills and sponsor/arrange my dive trips) so the more worthless doo-dads/crap the clueless crowd buys, the more revenue the shops receive, keeping them alive for MY purposes. Also, I've been known to use reverse psychology on other divers to help them 'see the light', namely let them make their own mistakes, don't stand in their way, let them dig their own holes, after they've done that a few times, a level of humility sinks in, and they become MUCH more receptive to the voice or reason/experience. I won't do anything to really deliberately endanger another diver, but will let them waste their $, configure their gear in a poorly planned manner and the resulting frustration tends to lead to more open minds in the end.

Haha fair enough. I don't tell people what to do other than when I think it is dangerous too, though if anyone asks my advice of gear I will say what I do love and what I loathe, but stress they should try things out for themselves as they might feel the opposite. I feel bad though when these people end up wasting a lot of money on gear they replace soon enough even though it benefits me, as you've stated

Me and my dive buddies mock each other all the time over gear though Outsiders might get the wrong impression...

 

[gcbryan]

Interesting post Scubafanatic. It's funny how almost everyone goes through the same stages. That was part of the reason for my post as well but I know that people really have to go though these stages on their own and gradually figure things out.

When I was a newer diver I went on my first boat dive and paired up with a DM from the local scuba shop. He was helpful but not pushy. He saw how I had my gear arranged and said something like "don't you want to streamline those hoses or something?" and I just said "it's fine".

It was one of my first dives and my bandwidth was elsewhere. I hardly even knew what he was talking about and didn't really care. After a dive or two however I began to observe others and to look at my gear. I had every hose imaginable loose and flopping around.

I then started using the velcro straps built into the BC and then fine turned things with putting hoses through the arm straps. Later was the retractor stage but I immediately saw that even fully retracted my gear was hanging just as much if not more than before the retractors. Then there was the try every octo holder ever made phase.

Ultimately I went with a bungeed backup and bolt snaps but I bought every piece of junk in the dive shop first including the full array of tank lights...never bought a tank banger I'm proud to say.

 

[scubafanatic]

Interesting post Scubafanatic. It's funny how almost everyone goes through the same stages. That was part of the reason for my post as well but I know that people really have to go though these stages on their own and gradually figure things out.

When I was a newer diver I went on my first boat dive and paired up with a DM from the local scuba shop. He was helpful but not pushy. He saw how I had my gear arranged and said something like "don't you want to streamline those hoses or something?" and I just said "it's fine".

It was one of my first dives and my bandwidth was elsewhere. I hardly even knew what he was talking about and didn't really care. After a dive or two however I began to observe others and to look at my gear. I had every hose imaginable loose and flopping around.

I then started using the velcro straps built into the BC and then fine turned things with putting hoses through the arm straps. Later was the retractor stage but I immediately saw that even fully retracted my gear was hanging just as much if not more than before the retractors. Then there was the try every octo holder ever made phase.

Ultimately I went with a bungeed backup and bolt snaps but I bought every piece of junk in the dive shop first including the full array of tank lights...never bought a tank banger I'm proud to say.

Yeah, I'm in the middle of my MIFLEX phase now...

 

[scubafanatic]

Haha fair enough. I don't tell people what to do other than when I think it is dangerous too, though if anyone asks my advice of gear I will say what I do love and what I loathe, but stress they should try things out for themselves as they might feel the opposite. I feel bad though when these people end up wasting a lot of money on gear they replace soon enough even though it benefits me, as you've stated

Me and my dive buddies mock each other all the time over gear though Outsiders might get the wrong impression...

My gear is now at a level where the boat DM's will admire it from a distance but won't actually mess with it, ('cause if they screw it up there could be a Warp Core Breach it's pretty hardcore/custom looking, which is just the way I like it and I hate a tank monkey touching my stuff anyway! (on my last liveaboard the head DM saw it and tried to get me into a rebreather referral program he was involved in ! ) the tech boys know how to spot their own.

 

[Puffer Fish]

My gear is now at a level where the boat DM's will admire it from a distance but won't actually mess with it, ('cause if they screw it up there could be a Warp Core Breach it's pretty hardcore/custom looking, which is just the way I like it and I hate a tank monkey touching my stuff anyway! (on my last liveaboard the head DM saw it and tried to get me into a rebreather referral program he was involved in ! ) the tech boys know how to spot their own.

Or they know how to suck up to a potential mark. Anyone that looks at your gear to decide how competent a diver you are is not paying you a compliment.

I had no idea there were all these retractor haters out there. I've used one for my camera for over 30 years.. guess I need to grow up.

I hate bolt snaps, because I do some shore diving where the fine grained sand causes them to lock up, but does not hurt the retractor I use. Different area, different needs.

What I have learned so far from this thread is that some people venomously hate dive shops.. and some of the time it is for real reasons and some of the time it is because the shop is not doing exactly what they want the shop to do.

Reality check: Shops carry what they believe will sell. Not what I want them to carry, not what someone thinks they should carry.

People that teach scuba are human.. what any student that takes an OW course should look for is an instructor that can do an excellent job of teaching that course..they may not know the weather conditions... they may not be great deco teacher, they may not even be up to speed on the "right" gear...what they should be good at is the job they are being paid to do.

Any shop that lies to you, does not have good business practices or sells you stuff that you don't like or want... take your business elsewhere. But if you asked for something, and they gave it to you, don't blame them.

I know shops I would not spend a dime at.. but I also know shops that deserve my business.

Like life in general, there is a maturing process people go thru... and like growing up, some people will spend part of that process looking back and thinking how stupid, dumb and incomptent those that got them started are. Sort of human nature for some. But unless one is on their death bed, it is just possible that this viewpoint is also a phase one is going thru.

 

[Nemrod]

When you first sign up for OW classes you assume that everyone connected with the dive shop are knowledgeable and excellent divers. You assume that you will be trained to the standards of a competent diver and that you will be sold the correct dive gear.

While I am sure that is what people think, they should not think that. Why would any reasonable person think that a one day course or a three day course would prepare a person for the real world adequately. Dive instruction today is simply a way to move customers through the door and back out the door as rapidly as possible with arm loads of full MSRP priced gear they mostly don't need to allow maximum floor planning exposure and profit.

N

 

[TSandM]

Gray, when you get too weary for words, go get some tanks filled at NWSD . . .

I don't know how he stays in business, but my LDS is a complete exception to this stereotype so many of us are irritated with. He doesn't sell junk. In fact, the manufacturers whose goods he carries get mad at him because he simply won't stock or push the "next new thing". If you walk into the store, you will see several backplate setups and a SeaQuest back inflate (not sure which one it is on the mannequin). I have NEVER heard him "upselling" a customer into something they didn't need. I don't wince when I hear the sales talks at all.

Customers of this shop tend to be rabid fans . . .

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Customers of this shop tend to be rabid fans . . .

We are fortunate to have some shops in our area like that. NWSD is one ... Tacoma Scuba is another.

In both cases it isn't the quality of the gear that makes people fans ... it's the willingness of the owners to treat their customers the way they want to be treated ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Nemrod]

If PadI were the FAA a pilot student could get a pilots license in 3 hours instead of 40 and they would have a Transport rating by 10 hours as long as they bought an airplane at full MSRP and a PadI Master Pilot patch to go with it.

N