Diver dies in San Diego

[jon m]

Root causes of most scuba accidents/fatilities:

1. Stupidity
2. Poor/bad health for diving (see 1)
3. Poor equipment maintenance resulting in failue (see 1)
4. Lack of training for dive (see 1)
5. Lack of experience for dive (see 1)
6. Equipment failure without backup (see 1)
7. Diving in improper/dangerous conditions (see 1)
8. Unknown or undetected health problem
9. dangerous fish/animals (usually caused by 1 but not always)
10. Sudden change in conditions
11. Supidity on someone elses part

other than numbers 8 and 10 and sometimes 9 all are usually avoidable/mitigatable.

That about summarizes it I guess...

That about summarizes it.

 

[Power Scuba]

Gosh, I don't think "what if" discussions help one little bit. I think facts help and I think discussions of basic safety practices help.

The lifeguard-released information (as posted from the Dive Bums list-serve) gives a few factoids to ponder and discuss. Anything past that simply doesn't serve anyone as far as I can see. I'm more than willing to wait to see what the actual details of the event were before launching into an in-depth discussion.

Having been privy (read: An observer) to a multitude of bulletin board/company/private email discussions regarding this tragedy the common factors I see are:

1. Shared grief
2. Genuine concern
3. Chest puffing to demonstrate one's own prowess
4. Ridiculous misinformation
5. Facts surrounded by assumptions

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Gosh, I don't think "what if" discussions help one little bit. I think facts help and I think discussions of basic safety practices help.

Bill, I think it all depends on how the question is phrased...the "what if" discussions can still bring out some worthwhile discussion points:

1. What if a diver is overweighted: Could this complicate buoyancy management during an ascent?
   
2. What if a buddy pair is doing an ascent while air-sharing: How important is it for both divers to be operating their exhaust valves in short bursts as they ascend? What happens if one dumps too much air and causes the pair to sink as a unit? If the buddy with air on his back is dumping air too quickly in a panic-stricken act, what can the other diver sharing air (without an operational power inflater) do? What are some methods that divers/instructors suggest in order to prevent buddy separation during an air-share? Would a long hose (5' or 7') primary reg configuration have made buddy separation more likely? Would things have been better or worse if the buddy pair were using inflator/integrated octo regs?
   
3. What if the divers involved understood the importance of gas planning/management: Can knowing your own SAC rate and that of your buddy's be useful information in making gas planning calculations? How might stress affect the SAC rate? How do you calculate a SAC rate? What are some of the factors you should consider in making sure that you have enough gas for a given dive? If this kind of gas planning is useful, how might it be taught to OW students? To AOW students? Is the "surface with 500psi" rule a "good enough" idea for gas planning?
   
4. What if the son surfaced prior to 9am which is when LJ Shores Lifeguards start their morning shift: Could this be one factor that delayed the emergency response (if it was, in fact, "delayed")? Might it be useful for the city/county to expand Lifeguard hours to begin weekend morning shifts earlier at 7am...or 8am? Can a diver in an OOA scenario rely on Lifeguards to get to him within 5 minutes? What should be a reasonable response time for Lifeguards in an accident area that's roughly in front of the Main Lifeguard Tower and 400 feet from shore? (Please note that I'm not making any judgments on the Lifeguard response here.)
   
5. What if the buddy pair had to re-certify or take a scuba-tune-up/refresher in order to keep their C-card current: Have any of the certifying agencies ever considered giving out "provisional" certifications to OW students? Would most new divers find this too paternalistic/restrictive? Would this add unnecessarily to the cost/inconvenience of obtaining scuba instruction? Would saving just one life be worth the extra cost/inconvenience?
   
6. What if the son were carrying a highly visible or loud safety signaling device: Is a safety sausage recommended for divers at La Jolla Shores sites? What do most instructors carry on La Jolla Shores dives when they are teaching? Do they carry different signaling devices when they're doing fun dives without classes? Would a whistle have been useful in this particular scenario? What about one of those Dive-Alert/air horn thingies? If the buddy pair were using rental gear, should whistles or safety sausages be provided with a complete rental gear set?
   
7. What if the buddy pair didn't really know that the dive they were planning was an advanced dive: Would it help if divers had better, more accessible info regarding dive sites at La Jolla Shores? Would it be helpful if the San Diego Council of Divers had an Internet webpage or signage at the Shores explaining the various LJ Shores dive sites, the recommended experience level for divers doing each site, a definition of what constitutes beginner/novice/intermediate/advanced, etc.? Could the signage be integrated somehow with "The Map" Lithocrete project?

This incident has really got me thinking about how we can make the Shores an even safer place to dive. It's a great dive location, offering something for all levels of divers to enjoy.

I'm not a dive instructor with 1,000+ dives under my belt. I'm sure instructors spend a lot of time thinking about and practicing/teaching rescue scenarios. For the rest of us, some of whom haven't taken a rescue class, I think running through these "what if" scenarios is a worthwhile exercise.

One more thing...to the rest of the ScubaBoard members who stumble onto this discussion, if you're reading this thread and you're not rescue-certified, please seriously consider getting this training. The class won't teach you how to respond to every single type of rescue scenario, but it will give you the tools to help problem solve a bad situation. At the very least, it will teach you to consider your own safety first before helping a diver in trouble. Be safe out there.

 

[Chuck Tribolet]

One thing about air-sharing -- YOU START BEFORE YOU RUN OUT. That way you have
some gas left to sort things out if you get separated. But the recipient doesn't see it
that way. I've had to share are twice in 1800 dives. One buddy was at 90' with
500 PSI. The other was at 50' with 300 PSI. Both had no idea where they were
until I checked their guage. I had to be REALLY emphatic with both about sharing air
(I had plenty of gas in both cases (2000 PSI in one). BTW, BOTH buddies were
instructors.

 

[Rick Murchison]

One thing about air-sharing -- YOU START BEFORE YOU RUN OUT. That way you have
some gas left to sort things out if you get separated. But the recipient doesn't see it
that way. I've had to share are twice in 1800 dives. One buddy was at 90' with
500 PSI. The other was at 50' with 300 PSI. Both had no idea where they were
until I checked their guage. I had to be REALLY emphatic with both about sharing air
(I had plenty of gas in both cases (2000 PSI in one). BTW, BOTH buddies were
instructors.

Well of course you do... unfortunately, the typical OOA situation isn't like that at all, because the first time the OOA diver checks his pressure is the suck-check, and the buddy's got 150 psi.
Rick

 

[river_sand_bar]

One thing about air-sharing -- YOU START BEFORE YOU RUN OUT. That way you have
some gas left to sort things out if you get separated. But the recipient doesn't see it
that way. I've had to share are twice in 1800 dives. One buddy was at 90' with
500 PSI. The other was at 50' with 300 PSI. Both had no idea where they were
until I checked their guage. I had to be REALLY emphatic with both about sharing air
(I had plenty of gas in both cases (2000 PSI in one). BTW, BOTH buddies were
instructors.

From what has been said....(not knowing the exact facts) If BOTH divers are OOA, as in this case ... then that is simply a BAD mis-management of a dive. It shows how new divers need to understand good dive profile.

 

[Power Scuba]

Bill, I think it all depends on how the question is phrased...the "what if" discussions can still bring out some worthwhile discussion points:

1. What if a diver is overweighted... {Snipped for length}

1. 
   
   All of these are fantastic and needful things to talk about, but not (I maintain) within the context of this diver death thread. Know why? Because five divers out of 100 would read a post like yours, then go to another bulletin board and post thusly:
   
   Diver who died this last weekend was OVERWEIGHTED! (NOT TRUE, for anyone just skimming this post!)
   
   Then it's repeated as fact countless times until dozens of people are repeating falsehoods (as far as we know).
   
   I've seen it happen during this very incident more than once already.
   
   That's my main point, thanks for reading.
   
   Bill

 

[MtnPlayVA]

These are great questions Bubbletrubble - thank you for posting them. I am a new diver so things like this really help me learn. This thread is probably not the best place, but I'd like to hear some thoughts from more experienced divers on these questions.

1. What if a diver is overweighted: Could this complicate buoyancy management during an ascent?
   
2. What if a buddy pair is doing an ascent while air-sharing: How important is it for both divers to be operating their exhaust valves in short bursts as they ascend? What happens if one dumps too much air and causes the pair to sink as a unit? If the buddy with air on his back is dumping air too quickly in a panic-stricken act, what can the other diver sharing air (without an operational power inflater) do? What are some methods that divers/instructors suggest in order to prevent buddy separation during an air-share? Would a long hose (5' or 7') primary reg configuration have made buddy separation more likely? Would things have been better or worse if the buddy pair were using inflator/integrated octo regs?
   
3. What if the divers involved understood the importance of gas planning/management: Can knowing your own SAC rate and that of your buddy's be useful information in making gas planning calculations? How might stress affect the SAC rate? How do you calculate a SAC rate? What are some of the factors you should consider in making sure that you have enough gas for a given dive? If this kind of gas planning is useful, how might it be taught to OW students? To AOW students? Is the "surface with 500psi" rule a "good enough" idea for gas planning?
   
4. What if the son surfaced prior to 9am which is when LJ Shores Lifeguards start their morning shift: Could this be one factor that delayed the emergency response (if it was, in fact, "delayed")? Might it be useful for the city/county to expand Lifeguard hours to begin weekend morning shifts earlier at 7am...or 8am? Can a diver in an OOA scenario rely on Lifeguards to get to him within 5 minutes? What should be a reasonable response time for Lifeguards in an accident area that's roughly in front of the Main Lifeguard Tower and 400 feet from shore? (Please note that I'm not making any judgments on the Lifeguard response here.)
   
5. What if the buddy pair had to re-certify or take a scuba-tune-up/refresher in order to keep their C-card current: Have any of the certifying agencies ever considered giving out "provisional" certifications to OW students? Would most new divers find this too paternalistic/restrictive? Would this add unnecessarily to the cost/inconvenience of obtaining scuba instruction? Would saving just one life be worth the extra cost/inconvenience?
   
6. What if the son were carrying a highly visible or loud safety signaling device: Is a safety sausage recommended for divers at La Jolla Shores sites? What do most instructors carry on La Jolla Shores dives when they are teaching? Do they carry different signaling devices when they're doing fun dives without classes? Would a whistle have been useful in this particular scenario? What about one of those Dive-Alert/air horn thingies? If the buddy pair were using rental gear, should whistles or safety sausages be provided with a complete rental gear set?
   
7. What if the buddy pair didn't really know that the dive they were planning was an advanced dive: Would it help if divers had better, more accessible info regarding dive sites at La Jolla Shores? Would it be helpful if the San Diego Council of Divers had an Internet webpage or signage at the Shores explaining the various LJ Shores dive sites, the recommended experience level for divers doing each site, a definition of what constitutes beginner/novice/intermediate/advanced, etc.? Could the signage be integrated somehow with "The Map" Lithocrete project?

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

All of these are fantastic and needful things to talk about, but not (I maintain) within the context of this diver death thread. Know why? ll

Bill with all due respect, this is in fact the "what if--then what might have happened and what might you do forum"

From the Sticky posted at the top of this forum section for many years now:

Special rules - Please Read

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving.
Accidents, and incidents that could easily have become accidents, can often be used to illustrate actions that lead to injury or death, and their discussion is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow. To foster the free exchange of information valuable to this process, the "manners" in this forum are much more tightly controlled than elsewhere on the board. In addition to the TOS:

(1) You may not release any names here, until after the names have appeared in the public domain (articles, news reports, sherrif's report etc.) The releasing report must be cited. Until such public release, the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(3) No trolling.
(4) No "condolences to the family" here

It is important for us as a community to assess and discuss diving accidents and incidents as a means of preventing them. However, once emotions are involved intelligent discussion becomes next to impossible. If the moderators feel that the discussion is getting out of hand in any thread they may close or remove the thread, with or without notice.

 

[Power Scuba]

And yet nothing in that Sticky you shared mentions taking an accident scenario and extrapolating out suppositions about what MIGHT have occured during the accident (especially when there are eyewitnesses forthcoming)... which I still maintain is not part of a healthy accident discussion nor condusive toward illuminating the FACTS of a particular incident.

Too, it seems upon further review that the real name of this forum is "Accidents and Incidents". If it truly is "what if--then what might have happened and what might you do" forum I'd be willing to be pointed to that name on the leader page.

Like I alluded to earlier, if any of the object lessons the poster mentions turns out to be true in this incident, then they would be wonderful additions to the discussion. Othewise they'd simply be precursors to a crapload of misinformation promulgated here... and then throughout the dive community.

My opinion, of course. ;-)

Cheers,

Bill