Diver missing on Spiegel Grove - Key Largo Florida

[Superlyte27]

This is Joe's son, i would like to answer some of your questions by providing the info i can release at the moment, as the investigation has not been closed yet.

My father was a diver of 32 years and was certified to penetrate.
They did have an extensive plan. and was equipped properly for said plan, which is the only reason jim could go back twice and still be living today, but was not prepared for all emergency situations which is evident.
both jim and my father were diving with 80cft aluminum and 10l ponies. nitrox mixes: 29% in main and 45% for deco.
The fact of the matter is that we will never know exactly what happened, what i can say at the moment is that narcosis was a factor, i can go into further detail at the end of next week when Deb closes her investigation.
i would like to make it clear, that we all understand that it was his choice and his alone to do what he did. we never thought for a second to blame jim, or the dive boat crew. we as divers all know there is a known risk in the sport we mutually enjoy. things go wrong, and sometimes are not in our control. in the coming week i can answer more of your questions, like dive times, questions about the reel and such. as for now this is all the information i am able to release.
Thanks, Joe II

I'm sorry for your loss. He was a good friend of my sister. They worked together for many years I think at Lake EMS.
Second, what certification did he have for penetration? To the best of our knowledge, he held no technical certs. Thirdly, his equipment was not the proper equipment to make this dive. I understand you don't know what's required for these types of penetration dives, and it's unclear as whether Joe really knew what was required or not, but what is clear is that he DID NOT take the proper gear.

We are thankful that you are not trying to blame the boat crew, dive op, dive buddy, etc. You are correct that "we may never know" what exactly happened, but what we can know is that he probably wasn't properly trained, and certainly wasn't properly equipped to make this dive. And I'd bet a shiny nickel that training and equipment would have virtually assured his survival. Guys, you know my stance on this. Don't dive beyond your training if you want to live.

 

[socompsp]

that was my mistake, he had not completed the course. but as others have pointed out, a piece of plastic does not ensure safety while attempting these kind of dives. you are also correct to a certain extent about the gear, but for what had been planned, he was suited. as i stated, narcosis came into the picture, and resulted in choices to deviate from his plan, which ultimately is what did him in, not his lack of gear or personal experience. while i do not blame Jim, if it were myself or another close friend who we all dove together with, we wouldnt have let him out of our sight, and this would have been avoided. letting yourself get far enough away from your partner to where he goes out of sight simply defeats the purpose of the buddy system. i understand that 100% visual contact inside a ship can be impossible at times, but you should be checking back often enough so you have a general idea when you got separated. but regardless of the validity of the last statement, they had a reel, and if it werent for narcosis, he would have continued to follow it out, even if it became jammed or what have you. i am in no way defending nor condoning their actions or behavior, cause in the end it was their dumbass choice to even go into the damn thing, and in the end no matter how much people argue about how and why, which mistakes were made or not made, he is still and always will be dead. trust this, in the hopefully far future when him and i meet again, im gonna kick his dumbass. ( i mean that with all the respect in the world dad)

 

[Superlyte27]

that was my mistake, he had not completed the course. but as others have pointed out, a piece of plastic does not ensure safety while attempting these kind of dives. you are also correct to a certain extent about the gear, but for what had been planned, he was suited. as i stated, narcosis came into the picture, and resulted in choices to deviate from his plan, which ultimately is what did him in, not his lack of gear or personal experience.

A piece of plastic means nothing... it's the training that comes with that piece of plastic that is significant. But that's another thread. You blame narcosis. Narcosis is ALWAYS there. It's not the narcosis' fault that your dad died. It's your dad's failure to mitigate the narcosis. Narcosis didn't sneak up on us. We all know about it. What's more important is, that we know how to eliminate a significant amount of it. We know how to do this because of the training we received.

Now, let me ask you this... and it's going to seem harsh.
The training to get certified to penetrate wrecks costs less than 1000 dollars. The cost to eliminate narcosis through the use of trimix costs less than 1000 dollars. Today, would you give $2000 to have your father back? Pretty friggin selfish of these divers to constantly kill themselves rather than cough up a few thousand dollars.

I lost my step brother last week. It wasn't diving related. And I promise his death was even dumber than Joe's. I'd certainly pay 2k if it meant he'd still be with us. Divers, pay the friggin money. You're not bullet proof. You're not going to live forever. Diving beyond your training, gear and common sense will eventually kill you. And us survivors left here on the surface can't for the life of ourselves figure out why YOU think it's not worth 2 or 3k to stay in our lives. This sucks. Stop fuggin doing it.

 

[socompsp]

i understand completely. as far as heliox, i wish he would have, we had talked about it. i realise it wasnt narcosis' fault. but you know just as well as every other diver, you dont know you are suffering from a serious case intil its too late. i also understand that there are precautions that could have been taken to prevent such. another analogy i want to stress on the topic of experience, is just cause a person doesnt take a course doesnt mean they dont know what is taught in it. take a mechanic for instance, you think they all went to school or are certified to do the work that they do on cars? no not all are, but that doesnt mean they dont know everything there is to know about fixing a car. which is why i cant understand how my father always being so careful would go into an overhead environment where the risk of narcosis is present, without having gotten certified to be able to fill and use a tri-mix, cause thats what he would have done normally. he was caught up in his own arrogance, this is my best guess, doomed from the time the boat was chartered. and i also agree with your final statement. let this be a lesson to all who choose to do things half-assed, cause its not YOU who have to live with your mistakes, its your family and friends who do. like i said, im not trying to defend what they did, it was their fault. i just want to bring clarity to the subject for future daredevils' reference. and to answer questions about what happened.

 

[Superlyte27]

We knew your dad, he frequented our shop. He was good friends with the owner. He WAS NOT QUALIFIED NOR DID HE HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE to do the dives he was doing. That's what killed him man.

He's dead because he believed exactly what you are typing about mechanics and certs, and blah blah blah. And it's BS. If he got on that boat believing the opposite of what he believed, he'd still be alive. Instead he believed that he was qualified to do the diving he was doing. And it's NOT TRUE. Why is it so hard to people to just say, "my loved ones died because they made a grave misjudgment in the level of their abilities". Because that's what we have here. It's what happened to him. It's what happened to the two in Eagle's Nest. It's sad, and it's not fair to us. But it is what it is

edit
I commend you man. And I really am sorry you're having to deal with this. It sucks, plain and simple. I wish people would just come talk to us before making dives that might kill them. We'd really rather have you alive than dead. There's financing, bartering, good will, something. I can't imagine for a second someone would come to us and say, "hey pete, we're thinking of diving XYZ". And then I say, "well, sorry you don't have the $400 for training". Good luck, hope you don't die. Nope, I'm going to do everything I can to get you the training, because I'd rather have you alive than have $400. Just as Joe would rather have his dad alive than have $2000.

Guys, if you are thinking about doing stupid sh!t like this. Please come talk to me. We'll figure out a way to get you the training. IT REALLY IS the difference between life and death.

 

[socompsp]

i wasnt suggesting by my analogy that he had the knowledge himself, i was just saying that its possible to know what you are doing without proper training, but is not likely. i know he screwed up man, ive stated it many times in my prior posts. i know he didnt know what he was doing or he would still be here. i know it was his arrogance from getting lucky many times before that led him to do this without the correct equipment or training. i guess i just need to word things differently lol. even i wouldnt dare enter an overhead environment at that depth without proper gas and adequate air supply. i understand what you are trying so hard to explain to me. but trying to get it through my family's head is a whole other ordeal, as none of them dive and cant even begin to understand this. they think its just a matter of going in, and turning around when youve gone through half your air, which in itself isnt even true, its hard to explain the simple rule of 1/3s to them. let alone how much more complicated it becomes on these kinds of dives.

 

[Superlyte27]

I wasn't just preaching to you Joe. I was preaching to the masses. The death on Christmas really bothered me. This subject has always been troubling to me, because I believe it's completely avoidable. I'm sorry I get so passionate about it.

I live in Eustis, if you ever want to get together for lunch or something give me a call.

peter
4073049288

 

[socompsp]

hey bro even if you were preaching to me i wouldnt mind, cause if you would have been it would be to ensure i didnt make the same mistake. and you are 100% correct, it is avoidable. even the smallest mistakes can do you in, and i say this to everyone. who knows how this would have turned out if he would have just had been breathing heliox instead. but even if he would have just changed that one aspect of his dive, it still wouldnt have been right. so it is plenty justified you get passionate about the subject. and i urge you to tell my fathers story to any diver you encounter who is about to embark on a dive they arent qualified to do. then perhaps you can help spare their family the pain that can follow.

 

[GCullen94]

First off, socompsp I am sorry for your loss.

Part of the issue is the lower half of the SG was never intended for diving in the first place. The upper half (machine shop, radar room, dining hall and up) has been cleared out for diving. The wreck has been cleaned and holes cut for light/exit points. A lot of dive ops in Key Largo allow swim throughs on the upper decks.

The lower decks (below around 90ft are not cleared out and do not have any cut out points. There is very little access to the lower decks causing a one way in and one way out approach. Also the bulkheads and rooms have not been cleaned out like the upper decks causing them to be much more claustrophobic.

The problem arises when people decide that they can go through the lower decks because they assume it is the same as the upper decks, instead they find dark, deep, claustrophobic rooms with harsh restrictions and many sharp edges that cut through line like a knife.

It's not just the breathing gas choice but the equipment configuration, the certification level and experience level all play a part in what happened down there.

Peter, thank you for showing your passion.

GC