Diver Training: How much is enough?

[They call me Tater]

Up here in our mudholes buddy skills are the most important ones...we are trained in buddy skills, but it is the buddy who has to take the resposiblilty not the training. I will be sure to let a buddy know they screwed up after a dive if they did. I would give them a second chance and if the next time was the same there would be no third time. I wouldn't blame their instructor....of course most of my buddies have been from the same instructor so that helps.

 

[jar546]

It is not my intention to focus on the standards of any one organization. Being an Instructor, I'd ask that you try to evaluate the 'competency level of the average diver,' rather than those that you personally train (or the standard of your training agency). I suppose I'm attempting to solicit feedback regarding the level of diver competency today in general. If the level of knowledge and skill is adequate, are you saying that when diver incompetency occurs (and I'm sure you have seen many of them), that this is solely a result of each of these divers knowing what should be done and choosing not to follow reasonable protocol?

Yes. They know better but choose to ignore what they have learned. Let's take a look:

The diver is certified through any agency. In order to do that, they had to read a book, take a quiz after each chapter (some have mini quizzes through out the chapters). The quizzes are reviewed and the student signs that they now understand the questions that they got wrong. Then there is a final exam based on the information in the student manual and what they learned in class. The final is reviewed and the student once again goes over the wrong answers if any. The agency OW manuals are packed with lots of information about diving from some history to exposure protection, diving with a buddy, equipment care and use, navigation, buoyancy, nitrogen loading, etc., etc., etc. they clearly were presented with a lot if information about recreational diving and have proved (on paper) that they absorbed quite a bit if it. The knowledge is there.

Then they are taken to a pool to practice what they learned and to experience scuba first hand by having skills properly demonstrated. It is here that there is a requirement for basic watermanship. After the required pool sessions, the instructor is not suppose to take a student to OW until they have demonstrated that they can perform the skill (hence a big debate right there with instructors). It is then that they go to OW to be evaluated by the instructor to determine if they are competent enough to be certified (again, a debatable hot topic in itself).

So yes, I would say that the rules of diving are largely ignored when you evaluate another diver.


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[DCBC]

... I don't believe all divers in all location need all the same requirements.

I agree that what a diver requires to dive safely is dependent upon the environment in-which they are conducting the dive. The 'minimum standard' that will meet the safety requirements will therefore depend...

Training vs. Experience. How do you get experience if you don't get to dive?? Can you train away 'stupid' or 'bravado' ?

We all start out inexperienced. When we do get 'certified' however, this should be a testament to our level of skill. In the past it meant that the diver could dive (in similar conditions or better than the training environment) with a Buddy independent of supervision. Has this changed in your opinion?

If someone here wants to visit Cozumel for 1 week a year to dive but they can't becuase they don't have enough training, does that help??

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but if a certified diver doesn't have the training to dive in Cozumel, I'd question his level of competency to begin with.

---------- Post added December 15th, 2012 at 10:33 AM ----------

So yes, I would say that the rules of diving are largely ignored when you evaluate another diver.

Thanks. I'm sure that this is definitely part of the answer. I appreciate your input.

 

[Kharon]

Should a newly certified diver be required to demonstrate reasonable Buddy skills (for example), or is this something that they are to learn after certification?

During my final checkout dives we were accompanied by an instructor and buddied up. We were expected to show buddy skills with both. Follow the instructor and maintain your buddy. At one point he silted us out (on purpose) and every one managed to find their buddy and him as well, and continue the dive. He did hand in the silt and didn't take off at full speed, giving us the time to find him.

When you go diving, what degree of competency do you expect of your Buddy? Perhaps you might comment on some of your experiences. Have you been disappointed with 'instabuddies' or have you hoped to never have to need to dive with them again, after the dive?

I expect them to be competent in basic skills. Sadly, much more often than not, I've been let down. Now I dive solo almost exclusively. I'm more than happy to dive with someone who has a problem with a skill and wants to practice that and needs a buddy while they practice. I practice the same skill to polish up. However, I really don't like it when we plan a dive and my "buddy" comes apart at the seams once we submerge.

 

[DCBC]

...I expect them to be competent in basic skills. Sadly, much more often than not, I've been let down. Now I dive solo almost exclusively. I'm more than happy to dive with someone who has a problem with a skill and wants to practice that and needs a buddy while they practice. I practice the same skill to polish up. However, I really don't like it when we plan a dive and my "buddy" comes apart at the seams once we submerge.

This is why I posted the original question. I too have experienced an incompetent buddy (some were Instructors). It has been my impression that the number of these has increased over the years. I'm sure some of these were taught properly and since have chosen to disregard the safety rules, but I question if all of them fall into this category. The question begs to be asked "Should the level of diving competence today be increased?" Perhaps its my own personal pride, but I can't imagine my students suddenly deciding to throw caution and safe procedures to the wind, just because they become certified.

I believe the problem may be a result of inadequate training and not a lack of experience, but I want to keep and open-mind and hear the opinions of others. Thanks for your input.

---------- Post added December 15th, 2012 at 10:53 AM ----------

Preaching to the choir...... Sadly, you aren't going to find the answers here. I would likely say those represented here (divers and instructors) are here because of the importance they feel. You can only set your own standards (some can't even do that due to agency stance), and be a good example...

Yes, the instruction is a far cry from before in many aspects (though it may be even better in others). It all boils down to the instructor producing the best he can, and the student wanting to do/be better.

In this fast food - quick gratification society of today, it sure isn't of high probability for achieving a high degree of knowledge and skill.

Frustrating.........

Thanks Bob. I needed that.

 

[They call me Tater]

"If someone here wants to visit Cozumel for 1 week a year to dive but they can't becuase they don't have enough training, does that help??



I'm not sure if I understand your question, but if a certified diver doesn't have the training to dive in Cozumel, I'd question his level of competency to begin with"

I meant as a rhetorical question...I tend to think that there are a lot of divers these days that are what you might call 'activity divers'. They get certified and can perform all the skills but the sole intent is to dive 2-3 times on an anual vacation such as a cruise. I know a couple that dives 2-4 dives a year when they go on vacation in the winter. Those are different from most of the divers on SB who think about diving in their free time, read books, articles and practice... So my rhetorical question is if those many 'activity divers' who are most likely to be the ones described in the OP are held to higher standards and may not ever dive becuase of it...would the sport be better off or is it good for the industry to have as many divers as possible? I am suspicious that the quality and quantity of divers will decrease as the baby boomers 'retire' from diving. I also agree that many just ignore some of what they are taught. I don't think the issue is the material but I do sometimes think the training time should be spread out to digest the material rather than just prove you can perform a particular skill one or two times.

On the other hand, you can make an arguement that most training IS good becuase divers like the one in the OP stick out as a bad example, but with many more divers come many more bad examples and that the overall training is just as good or better..1/100 vs 100/10000 (I am not saying I believe it only that one can make that argument as some agencies have)

Ok, time for the newb to be quiet

 

[DCBC]

Thanks for the clarification Tater. Perhaps I could rephrase the question. "Does the competency level of divers today affect the number of Solo Divers being certified?" It would appear that regardless of the business criteria of certification agencies and Instructors to increase profits, lower standards have had an impact on Diving. As the bar drops, the number of divers being certified increases. No doubt that this has had both a positive and negative affect. Perhaps these are worth discussing as well...

 

[Bob DBF]

We all start out inexperienced. When we do get 'certified' however, this should be a testament to our level of skill. In the past it meant that the diver could dive (in similar conditions or better than the training environment) with a Buddy independent of supervision. Has this changed in your opinion?

In the past the "(in similar conditions or better than the training environment)" was never inserted. An OW diver was trained to make an evaluation of the conditions and act accordingly, not follow a DM, Instructor, or anyother figure of authority without making ones own decision. I believe Scuba Diver was the qualification for those who needed special attention.

I believe the big difference is that when I finally certified, even then, no one expected the instruction to be cheap, fast, or easy. Adjusted for inflation I spent over twice as much for OW as is paid now. The training was longer and the expectations on students was higher, which may be due the fact we were diving the NorCal coast, but I couldn't imagine him being easier anywhere else. The focus was producing competent OW divers, not selling the next class.

May be it just annoys me that OW certification is now considered a joke rather than the accomplishment it once was.

I think a diver who takes up Solo because of a bad experience with a buddy should look carefully at their own skills and their part in the problem, it is team issue not just the other guy. No one should get into Solo because they are "forced". I solo when I want to because I enjoy it, and buddy dive at other times. I have buddied with some numnuts and have worked out issues over time, and with others I just moved on. Over the years it seems the newbe is not as skilled out of class, but I have the perspective of one who read a book and started SCUBA diving so I can give anyone the benifit of the doubt.



Bob
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A man's got to know his limitations.
Harry Callahan

 

[o2dependant]

Having passed my OW course I feel now that I had a false sense of security underwater immediately after. There was an emphasis on safety of course but I don't believe that enough of that emphasis was based on how tohandle an emergency situation. What would be wrong with simulating an OOA scenario at depth with a buddy breath ascent to the surface at the end of each OW dive.

After completing my course I would have quite comfortably rented gear and gone shore diving with my buddy. Was I really prepared for that? No Chance. I'm glad I never and all of my diving up until now has been with a buddy and DM

Even after completing my Advanced open water I feel the same way as I could have completed that in 9 dives had I chose to do so.

So I feel that the training is adequate to allow a recreational diver to dive under guidance but not substantial enough to allow a diver buddy pair to go offon their own into the unknown. This is exactly what being OW certified allows you to do.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

I think this is a very important and informative thread. I personally think many certified open water divers really should be certified as "scuba divers" who are required to dive with a professional. For many certified divers this is the extent of the type of diving they ever want to do. I have posted a blog post on what it means to really know how to dive, and to me it includes being able to independently plan and carry out a safe dive with a buddy. We all know that not every diver reaches that level at the point of certification or even beyond that point. But for the OP to suggest that he is a solo diver because he doesn't want to dive with bozo's creates another issue. When an experienced diver dives with a novice, or novice to them diver, they can make the dive better with a proper discussion and briefing before the dive. I blogged on that too: "What makes a good dive buddy." In the scenario presented, it seems that for different reasons, each of the failed buddy team did not make a good dive buddy. However the OP did show leadership and concerns in retrieving the wayward diver, for which I commend him. Competence, not credentials, make the diver. I know several divers with open water cards that are experienced, competent and comfortable on doing just bout any dive they choose. I know people with advanced cards and beyond who are still "trail ride" divers.
That's fine, if they know their limitations and dive within them. The same is true of knowing you limitations as to who you can put up with diving. Not everyone can handle a newer diver instabuddy.
DivemasterDennis