Diver Training: How much is enough?

[The Chairman]

You've accused me of "PADI bashing" for years. Not once have you questioned any of the facts that I've presented. You simply call any statement of truth 'bashing.'

Wow. I have questioned your "facts" quite often and usually you say I am calling you a liar when I do. Unfortunately, you present your conclusions and inferences as being facts and somehow feel that they are unassailable. I am not the only one who feels that you have a "PADI is evil" agenda and you get all butt hurt when you are called on it.

I suppose it's much easier than trying to present an intelligent argument.

Only you would know. Don't project your tendencies and characteristics on to me. Again I ask: what did I say that was untrue? What conclusion did I draw and present as a fact?

 

[Martigan]

Back to the industry topic: are we talking about the nationality of the owner, or the place where R&D and design takes place?
because for Aqualung, Apeks and Uwatec, design and R&D is still being done in Europe (Aqualung France in Carros does a part of the design and R&D of aqualung, while Uwatec is being owned by a larger american corporation, but that does not mean that they are here just for marketing purposes...).

Some are leaders, other followers, I get it. The point is that in Europe you find many european brands designed in Europe, even if they are not all leaders in technology (there is only one leader in each category after all).
And the european dive equipment industry is not a tiny part of the equipment sold in Europe, which was the point of the OP that asked the question.

 

[The Chairman]

A lot of the R&D for Aqualung is done in California. How much? I have no idea, but their facilities in California are awesome. Aqualung is definitely a worldwide manufacturer. They have multiple offices, factories and warehouses around the world.

 

[Diver0001]

Back to the industry topic: are we talking about the nationality of the owner, or the place where R&D and design takes place?
because for Aqualung, Apeks and Uwatec, design and R&D is still being done in Europe (Aqualung France in Carros does a part of the design and R&D of aqualung, while Uwatec is being owned by a larger american corporation, but that does not mean that they are here just for marketing purposes...).

Sorry to burst your bubble... but despite French pride none of the above are French companies anymore. They may have started out with French or European roots but that's it. At this point they are as French as the city of New Orleans.

Some are leaders, other followers, I get it. The point is that in Europe you find many european brands designed in Europe, even if they are not all leaders in technology (there is only one leader in each category after all).

True there are a number of European niche players who produce top-shelf products. I don't want to suggest that Europe is a wasteland of boring "monkey-see-monkey-do" products....although most of it is. The sad fact, however, is that aside from Suunto we don't have any leading companies.

And the european dive equipment industry is not a tiny part of the equipment sold in Europe, which was the point of the OP that asked the question.

meh.... Beuchat and APvalves sales, as compared to aqualung fit in a thimble.

Some companies make relatively good local sales but no European companies aside from Suunto and Mares have significant world wide operations.

R..

 

[DCBC]

Mine isn't 50 hours. They only book round about 15 hours of bottom time and they spend about another 40 or so on theory. That only makes 45 hours. The std PADI course is 31 but I choose to spend more time on it because local conditions are not ideal.

I salute you for not being among the many Instructors that teach as little as the Standards will allow. As you are doing this under the auspices of PADI, either you've slipped under their radar, or things have in-fact changed within the organization. I mention this because when I was a PADI Instructor, I believed that a certification agency wouldn't take any exception to diver's being given more training than the minimums and that 'profit' was never considered trump over 'the value of education.' This wasn't however the case. When PADI's 'corporate financial influence' was revealed to me, I was shocked. As the owner of a PADI Facility, I was aware of how the organization had designed training to feed financial benefit to it's shops, but although this was good business, I was surprised how important profit was to the Agency.

Obviously every business has to make money to survive. There's nothing the matter with this, but for me the realm of safe diving education has a different priority. Every diving organization that I had become involved with over the years felt that education trumped profit. In-fact, my facility was also registered as a NAUI Training School and profit was never an issue with NAUI, "Quality Education" was the only thing that was important to them.

I suppose one analogy might be teaching at a University, which I've done a number of times as a Lecturer (even with my antiquated teaching skills ). If I had taught for 20 years at a facility who stressed 'quality of education' and then went to another University and was told to shorten my classes (so the institution could make more money) I'd have to question my role as an educator. This is my experience with PADI and why I feel the way I do.

I suppose this may be similar to how a black person today regards the Ku Klux Klan. I don't think that if I said not to feel negative towards this organization because it has changed, this may not be seen as credible. Sometimes we each get a really bad taste in our mouth when we are given unique insight into an organization, or an individual. Yes, change can happen, but to me having the experience and missing its meaning is the definition of a fool...

The Dutch call that a 'proefballon" (literally translated into "test balloon" . It was a bit of push back to see if your standpoint could survive a direct pulling of the carpet from underfoot. It's an age old debating technique.

Hopefully it accomplished what you intended.

If you say that you didn't say it then I believe you. What I *think* I have accumulated from all of your posts is that your swimming requirements are extreme. If you would like to clarify that stand point and you wish to now propose that they are in line with other training agencies then I'm willing to listen.

I don't believe that diver safety is achieved by training poor or non-swimmers. For this, I don't apologize. In some circumstances this may be overkill (as I've admitted my course is for a typical vacation diver), however I believe it reasonable for the conditions I teach in. In my mind, to do less is negligent.

I respect you. As a man, as an instructor, as one of my elders in this sport. I *do* listen to you, although I may not always agree with you. I *do* believe that what you have to say has value (although I can't always see it) and I would love nothing more than to spend an evening or two with you in your living-room "talking shop".

You have my respect as well. I would enjoy an opportunity to discuss matters in-person.

That said I do also believe that age does not always equal wisdom and I hope (and wish) that you could return that respect.

Wisdom is applied knowledge. The possibility exists that I've:
- taught recreational, technical, commercial and military diving for the past 42 years;
- operated a LDS, Diver Charter Company and Canadian dive equipment distributorship;
- had an opportunity to dive in every Ocean of the World and accumulated what amounts to be years of time underwater;
- certify hundreds of divers at various levels (OW to Instructor Trainer);
- run a National certification Agency for recreational and technical diving;

...and haven't either learned anything (or been unable to apply anything learned). I may be some radical old man who has nothing valuable to say, or I do. Either way, it's up to the individual to discern and decide for themselves.

I was taught that respect is something that you earn. This is accomplished in a debate by not misquoting those with a different perspective. There is no ultimate truth; only what the individual chooses to be his or her reality, from their perspective.

Progress is seldom achieved as a result of resisting change and I would love to have the chance to blow the froth off a couple with you and exchange ideas on an equal footing. I think we'd both be better off for that.

Sometimes it's wise to accept change, while at other times only a fool accepts it. Much of the time, people just go along because they feel that "progress is seldom achieved as a result of resisting." Personally, I believe that as long as my values are not compromised, I accept it. In diving instruction, I utilize the latest that technology has to offer. I just believe that any 'Standard' that can place weak or non-swimmers into an environment where their safety can come into question, isn't one which I support. You and others may disagree with my position, but you can't disagree with the reasoning behind it.

I'd be happy to buy the first round...

---------- Post added January 19th, 2013 at 07:44 AM ----------

...what did I say that was untrue? What conclusion did I draw and present as a fact?

You continually make assumptions and very seldom substantiate anything in-which your opinion is based.

 

[TSandM]

DCBC, we keep telling . . . a whole BUNCH of us keep telling you that there is no restriction on class length for PADI any more. You can do as many pool sessions as you want. You can take as many weeks as you want. PADI doesn't care, so long as you do things in the prescribed order, include all the required things, and that you do not require anything beyond the standards as a condition of certification. Financial considerations DO lead many shops to minimize the length of classes, and to minimize in particular expensive pool time. But if the shop/instructor/organization wants to take longer, they may.

I believe that PADI, some significant time ago, took issue with the length of your classes. That is simply not the case any more.

 

[DCBC]

... PADI doesn't care, so long as you do things in the prescribed order, include all the required things, and that you do not require anything beyond the standards as a condition of certification. Financial considerations DO lead many shops to minimize the length of classes, and to minimize in particular expensive pool time. But if the shop/instructor/organization wants to take longer, they may.

I believe that PADI, some significant time ago, took issue with the length of your classes. That is simply not the case any more.

My complaint with PADI has been that they have deviated from the usual attitude among national certification agencies, in-that 'diver education' takes a back seat to making money. There's no need to repeat what I've already said repeatedly, but this is the heart of it. Secondly, I believe their Standard for certification sets the bar too low. With the recent changes that NAUI has adopted, I believe that they are following the same path. The main difference being is that NAUI encourages their instructors to add to the training program and in some ways PADI prohibits it (no PADI Instructor can alter the training program and make the added content a requirement for certification).

The PADI Standard is the same regardless of the diving environment. What makes for 'easy training' in one area can make the training insufficient in another. Insufficient training and low Standards have caused death in the past. For me, this is simply unacceptable.

Lynne, I have come to admire you and value your opinion. This is one area however that I don't suspect you will change my mind (nor will I change yours), so we should agree to disagree.

 

[TSandM]

I'm not going to change your mind, I know that. But when you make statements like claiming that Rob is "flying under the radar" because he is teaching a longer class, I just feel the need to correct the misinformation that is implied. You have impressed me as having reached some conclusions about PADI, based on some VERY old experiences, and those conclusions are set in stone, no matter what we do to try to offer that SOME things have changed.

We can argue about whether the "typical" OW class, given through ANY mainstream agency, is good enough training for divers. We can all agree, I think, that many divers come out ill-trained and not very competent. But I think there is very little to be accomplished by agency-bashing, which is what this thread (thinly veiled, perhaps) has been, as so many of the threads you have started here have been. And less still to be accomplished by attempting to perpetuate misinformation.

 

[DCBC]

...I know that. But when you make statements like claiming that Rob is "flying under the radar" because he is teaching a longer class, I just feel the need to correct the misinformation that is implied.

I did not "claim that Rob was flying under the radar," but said that this was one possibility. Neither Rob, you, nor I can know the current situation from PADI's perspective.

I was a PADI Instructor for over 10 years before I had my first conversation with John Cronin. I was an Instructor for 13 years before I had a heart to heart with PADI HQ. Up until this time, I obviously was flying under the radar. At these times (and others) the conversations were a result of being the owner of a PADI Facility and not because I was a PADI Instructor.

I'm confident that if I was not in the position I was, I'd likely never have been privy to this information. But you're suggesting that a PADI Instructor or DM (who doesn't make a living by diving and is not the owner of a PADI facility) should reasonably know the way the PADI corporation conducts business and is privy to their intentions. Moreover, you know things so well that you brand someone who is relating a personal experience as one who purposely misleads others by spreading misinformation. That's disappointing.

We can all agree, I think, that many divers come out ill-trained and not very competent.

This IS the reason for the OP. Put aside what you think you know of my intentions (as you're mistaken). Don't be quick to take-up the PADI banner and wave it (PADI isn't the only certification organization I've named). Lets concentrate on the question (for once) without avoiding it: Why is it that "divers come out ill-trained and not very competent?" Why should this be the case? Especially when the same divers are told that they're certified to dive unsupervised and at times in more hazardous conditions that are normal for their area.

 

[Rooster In Ohio]

Is recreational diving heading in the correct direction? Should the direction be changed?

Acknowledging that I don't have a comma (or even a third digit) in my claimed number of dives, admitting that received my OW and AOW from PADI at a resort, and having only skimmed over the pervious responses, I had the same thought several times over the last two weeks while diving in Jamaica. Some divers bounced along the bottom, kicked into the silt and coral, and wandered around by themselves while others maintained good boyancy, didn't stir up silt or disturb the environment, and maintained buddy contact. I made video of each of our dives and my wife and I remarked about it as we watched.

From my limited perspective, all a C card means is that the bearer demonstrated the minimum physical and mental ability to satisfy the requirements associated with the C card at one point in history. What each diver does with it from there is up to that diver. Some try to practice and implement the fungible skills they learned and improve their proficiency, either with an eye toward satisfying the requirements of a higher level C card or simply with an eye toward improving themselves. Others don't, either because they do not have the opportunity to practice their skills, because they don't care, or because it does not occur to them that their mastery of that skill has fallen below the minimum level they were once required to demonstrate.

I liken it to my own life - I have earned certification representing competency in different areas over the years and am better than the day I received the certification in some and woefully deficient in others due to lack of practice or the ravages of time (or both - God help me if the balloon ever went up and the Marines told me to jump out of another perfectly good airplane!!).

To me it is a lot like driving a car. Everyone with a driver's license demonstrated a basic master of the rules of the road at one time in their life - but look at us now! Some of us took these skills seriously, sought to improve our driving, and maybe even took advanced courses (autocross, racing school, etc.). Others juggle a cigarette, a burger, a cell phone, and a van full of brats on our way home from the bar while weaving in and out of traffic and blowing red lights.

It may be that divers initially trained by one agency follow a different curve of proficiency once they achieve a certain level of training than those initially trained by others - I don't know and that is clearly a topic for endless debate (please don't interpret this as a defense of any given agency - I actively steer my friends that want to take up diving to the best instructors I know, and, funny, none of them teach PADI). But I think the answer to the question is that diving is heading in the direction of being more accessible to a greater cross-section of people and each and every one of them is at a different place (and heading up or down) on the spectrum of skill sets.

Is that the right direction? Probably, but I just rue the day we get underwater cell phones!!

My $0.02, respectfully submited.

db