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If you look at the statistics, I think you will find that the vast majority of instructors (along with the vast majority of OW level certifications) are not from the vacation areas. If you stick to your original position, perhaps the vast majority of the instructors and the vast majority of students should be given more attention to their needs and requirements. :)

While I have used "vast majority" a number of times, I would contend that warm water has usually been the modifier and I also still contend that the vast majority of diving and instructors are in warm water.
 
For those of you who don't want to join the Yorkies, here's the document
 
This has been a great thread for a new diver to read. I have learned a lot! Mostly about what I should look into learning :)

But I keep wondering...

What would this discussion be like if there was beer involved :confused:
 
Regardless of the number of diving deaths per year, I think it's fair to say that one is too many (especially if it's yourself or a member of your family). Too many deaths are the result of poor fitness and diver error. My contention is that by improving the training a diver receives, death and injury can be mitigated. I'm sure there is much that can be done...


http://www.thescubasite.com/Latest-Scuba-Diving-News/scuba-diving-accident-statistics


I actually don't think the goal should be "zero" deaths. As pointed out earlier the best way to get to that is to deny those over 40 the chance to dive. The risk in diving today is very low, I find it very acceptable. To get it to zero would deny many people the joy of diving. We make choices everyday that show we are willing to allow very low numbers of people to die so that much larger numbers of people are not greatly inconvenienced. If we wanted to reduce auto fatalities we would lower the speed limit on freeways to 30 mph, and it would work. We don't do that because the risk right now is still so low that the risk/incovenience factor isn't worth it. Sure some, a very few, come out on the short end of the odds, and others, also a very few, win the lottery, the vast majority of us fall in the middle.
 
As pointed out earlier the best way to get to that is to deny those over 40 the chance to dive.

Sure, right after you sterilize stupid people so they can't have children.... Denying the over 40 crowd from doing anything because of their age is simply discrimination!

I'm 56 and this year like every other I passed a saturation diving medical. There are 25 year old divers on this discussion board who couldn't do that. So your suggesting that because I happen to be over 40, you think it's wise to deny me the chance to dive (and to make a living)??? I obviously don't agree!

I think it would be better to deny those who don't want to spend the time to learn how to do an activity properly.
 
Sure, right after you sterilize stupid people so they can't have children.... Denying the over 40 crowd from doing anything because of their age is simply discrimination!

I don't think he is suggesting that, rather he is point out that, statistically speaking, such a prohibition would have a large impact on the already low scuba death rates.

I think it would be better to deny those who don't want to spend the time to learn how to do an activity properly.

I assume you are not just saying more required training (and the associated more training costs). So what standards need to be changed and at what cost/benefit? And how many divers (customers) would those higher standards eliminate?
 
DC wrote
If you look at the statistics, I think you will find that the vast majority of instructors (along with the vast majority of OW level certifications) are not from the vacation areas.
Your source for this information is? And does the source identify WHERE the OW/checkout dives are done as opposed to where the student lives?

I certainly don't know the answer, but it would not surprise me to learn that "the vast majority" of people who dive, do so in warm water.
 
I don't think he is suggesting that, rather he is point out that, statistically speaking, such a prohibition would have a large impact on the already low scuba death rates.

In many ways you can make statistics say anything that you like. Something like 70% of motor vehicle accidents are caused by people under 45 years of age. Is it that people this age are just poor divers or do they just represent the vast majority of the drivers out there?

Do people die of heart attacks because they become a certain age, or is it that their fitness and lifestyle (in-particular being sedentary with a lack of exercise) puts them in a higher risk category. Again it's not simply age that's a factor, so I take exception to saying somebody should be excluded from an activity because of age.

As far as diving is concerned, I know many young people that have a certain attitude that's not conducive to safety. I would not suggest however, that this is a result of their age. Because a person is only 25 does not mean he's immature. It should be in all fairness, an individual assessment.

If this was done, I'm sure some people over 40 should stop diving, but perhaps this would be true in all age categories. :)

I assume you are not just saying more required training (and the associated more training costs). So what standards need to be changed and at what cost/benefit? And how many divers (customers) would those higher standards eliminate?

You have hit the nail on the head. In diver training you have a number of factors at play. Not the least of which is people wanting to make money off the process. You have to establish how much training is required to keep the diver safe? Will this serve the majority of the people interested in this training? How will this affect the diving equipment, research and tourism industries? How will this impact safety? To what level will the Instructors train? etc.

Obviously we all have our personal opinions on this (I've already expressed mine on previous posts). We can look at this from a global perspective, or what it may mean to us as an individual.

There are some instructors who want training to be more through and inclusive (I being one of them) and others who feel "it's just a license to learn," "the death rate isn't that bad," or "raising the standards will affect the industry because of profit loss."

Diving training has changed focus from cold to warm water and from the diver being able to dive unsupervised to supervision required. I think that we need to set-up reasonable parameters and work backwards to enhance safety and diver retention.
 
DC wrote Your source for this information is? And does the source identify WHERE the OW/checkout dives are done as opposed to where the student lives?

I certainly don't know the answer, but it would not surprise me to learn that "the vast majority" of people who dive, do so in warm water.

Depending on where you get your information, Colorado, which offers only cold water, low visibility diving, is anywhere from first to third among states for divers per capita. Few of our divers actually dive in Colorado, though, and if our shop is indicative of the rest of the state, most by far do their academic and pool work in the state and then do their OW dives in a warm water resort area.
 
I want to be amazing. I want to be safe, skilful and knowledgeable. I'm not diving because I have to, I'm diving because I love it. And anything I can learn to make me a better diver I want to embrace.

For me this is the key. It's not about minimum standards. Minimum standards should be the exception not the rule. Why?

Because being a good or great diver makes diving an amazing experience (not that I'm either by a long shot) no matter what the local conditions. Diving is a joy in its own right. It does not need any fishes. The absolute pleasure one has when on a dive, for the first time, when you manage to pan out, back fin, is amazing. Is it necessary? Well no, not to stay alive. But to continue to learn, and love diving? That for me is what it's all about. I'm pretty new to this diving thing but already I look at some instructors and wonder where the hell they learned to dive. Cos they're ****.

This isn't about standards, its about creating the conditions where someone isn't satisfied with being adequate. It's about creating conditions where there is always something to learn, something to achieve, something to strive for. It is this which sates the human condition, not some quick win.

Dive until you're the best then try to find someone better. Repeat.

In a thread with many pages of people going around and around without reaching any consensus, or perhaps even a good definition of the problem, this post was a breath of fresh air. IntheDrink, if you're ever in Seattle, I want to dive with you!
 
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