Do I Need AOW to Travel?

[Melicertes]

Which ops, where? The fact is, as I mentioned in my original post, I have dived in quite a few places without running into this. In fact, I have accumulated 250 dives and only been asked once. So, it sounds like the Keys are probably a no-go zone for me without AOW. Does anyone know of any other specific areas where this is probably the case?

This is not just an issue in the Keys; I know some dive operators in South Africa that have the exact same rule and they've had it for at least the past 10 years. While I understand you and your wife have obviously grown into divers with some experience, and while I understand that getting the AOW cert feels like a $$-making racket and a hoop to jump through, why not just get the cert for you both and not worry about the whole thing? It seems to me like you would be missing out on some pretty awesome diving if you take a "the Keys are dead to me coz I can has no AOW card" kind of position with the rest of the world just because you ran into some resistance once or twice in an area. Besides, you are likely to see this come up as an issue depending on who you talk to at the dive op. Last month's manager behind the counter may have been laid back and did not worry about the 60' rule but the new guy might have a different take on it.

Why not join your local dive club and work out a deal with an instructor to get both you and your wife on completing the AOW certs? You already have some of the specialty courses done which should be credited towards the AOW adventure dives anyway. It seems to me that you are so close to meeting the AOW requirements, not that they are all that significant anyway, and you both sound like a more experienced divers compared to many AOW divers anyway. I would just complete the AOW and stop chopping up the world map into "can dive" and "them bastages won't see my business" zones. I think there is so much more to see out there than to get hung up on what often may very well be red tape.

 

[Texasguy]

AOW is a requirement in FL by many dive Ops to dive the deeper wrecks in the keys. You can argue with them but many dive Ops have this rule and it is pointless discussing it. My Cuz has been diving since the 70's and they would not book her on the deep dives until she showed up with the AOW or better cert. You can hire a guide and maybe get a pass after that, not sure. So if you diving in the Keys and want to dive the deeper wrecks be forewarned.

I had no idea that any place other than FL was doing this as it is kinda BS IMO.

Is it possible they are limited by this requirement because of their liability insurance agreement that explicitly requires it?

 

[dpaustex]

I am throwing out my yellow "caution flag" on this.

Having an AOW card - or any card - means very little to me. I am an instructor (yes, AOWI), and see people that come "looking for a card" that really aren't all that proficient. They want a certain card simply so they can go on a certain dive (most dive operators require the AOW card for anything beyond 90 feet, high current, or limited viz). However, it all goes back to comfort level, how long has it been since you have been diving, have you been diving in similar condtions before, etc.

Most dive accidents happen due to stressors in AOW situations, resulting from diving out of your comfort zone, challenging conditions never before experienced, etc. (very, very few are equipment related). DAN has figures to show that most accidents are in the first set of the series (e.g. you are diving for a week, and the accident happens the first day).

A few things: If you are going to go deep diving, take a deep diving course. THEN actually get a few under your belt in controlled conditions (with someone that has done a lot of it).

If you then add in yet another new thing, such as high-current to that deep dive (think the wrecks in Florida), then you've got two new things on a dive. You really shouldn't add multiple new things. For instance, don't do a new deep dive, new high current dive, then add new gear. BAD combination. Your brain can (and sometimes will) overload. The common reaction is panic. You can also be taught how to manage that panic (and avoid the conditions in the first place).

Add to this a lack of basic skills in some divers. Can you hover effortlessly at ANY depth? In current? Can you do free descents in any current or visibility? Can you ascend while drift diving and hold your safety stop at 15 feet with no issue? Can you easily and effortlessly flood and clear your mask at depth? Do you have good gear that has been recently serviced, and is gear easy breathing at 90 feet (big issue here is cheap, unbalanced regulators)? Do you understand what happens if you get narced at depth?

Enough of that. I have also taught people that "got it" after 2 dives, thoroughly knew dive theory, and were like a fish in the water. I would take them with me on a difficult dive in a heart beat.

Get some experience BEFORE you invest multiple thousands in an exotic trip. The dive operator will be thankful, and the people that are part of your group will be, too.

Final word, if you only dive 4-5 times per year, TAKE A REFRESHER COURSE before you go. The DMs on the boat don't want you to endanger yourself, or the group. If you don't, then pay the extra $50 per boat outing for someone to hold your hand.

It's a safe sport, if you are serious about safety. I really don't want to pull anymore "I've been diving for 15 years" folks out of the water while I'm on vacation.

 

[RonFrank]

Which ops, where? The fact is, as I mentioned in my original post, I have dived in quite a few places without running into this. In fact, I have accumulated 250 dives and only been asked once. So, it sounds like the Keys are probably a no-go zone for me without AOW. Does anyone know of any other specific areas where this is probably the case?

Thanks again,

In Coz we did a CO dive on Santa Rosa Wall to determine diving comfort. Funny as that reef is deep (80+') and the wall runs deep like well past rec limits, so odd spot for a dive op to assess our skills. Paradise would have been a better CO reef but whatever floats their boat.

In FL I have run into Ops that wanted AOW in Key Largo. I did not hear them offering to substitute skills for a cert. This was Conch Republic and Rainbow Reef. Howard and Michelle were OW only at the time but they knew many of the locals, so I have to wonder how a tourist would be treated. Likely like my Lauderdale local cousin. She is a marine Biologist who has been diving since the 70's but they demanded a cert. She had plenty but I had no clue when we were checking in before she had arrived. Funny that AOW and zero dives was fine but OW and 100's of dives was not acceptable. Your experiece may vary and I have not dove FL for 3 years.

In CA I just used my Rescue card so if they were looking for AOW or better I did not notice, but I doubt it. We dove with some serious newbies on the Peace and we hit 120' on one dive but I have no clue how deep others dove. However there was nothing in the briefing that sounded like some needed to avoid depth or maintain above 60'. We dove San Diego on a different trip and those divers involved a 80' wreck. CA seemed to be more about the dive and less about the cert.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I don't have an AOW card (my original crumbled into pieces years ago and NASDS lost many of its records in a warehouse fire).

I have been diving with many ops that advertise AOW required. Once I explain I have 450+ logged dives over 32 years they usually are reasonable. Once or twice they were not and I found another op. If you are in a similar situation, figure out what the Ops rules really are BEFORE dive day. As a prospective customer, they are more likely to be reasonable, can check with the manger, etc... Once you pay and are on the boat, then you are at their mercy.

 

[meagicano]

I've been diving since 2009, only here in the St-Lawrence. Our local dive ops are reasonable for boat charters so I've done deeper dives without the AOW cert. I started it back in 2009... and finally last night got around to finishing it up. My problem is that I really hate taking the PADI courses and I prefer to just get out and dive... I feel like the AOW is a huge money grab but I have to buy in because I want to head into the U.S. and do some serious diving next year!

 

[Crowley]

Always a good discussion to chime in on...

I can tell you from direct experience that many recreational dive centres around the world will stick to the recommended depth limits of the certification, regardless of experience. This is firstly, covering their backsides, and secondly, covering my backside as well. In some places, and in many shops, them's the rules, sorry, and in some locations, this is due to government interference, not self-promotion of a business-led dive industry.

I am fortunate to work in a location and for a dive centre that does not require an AOW cert to dive to 30 metres - because it's just daft to tell somebody who has 500 or more dives spread over 20 years but "only" an OW certification from 1982 that they can't dive deeper than 18 metres. Some of my customers were diving in my location on a regular basis before I was even born, and so the whole certification argument becomes little bit silly. On the other hand, I can't take novice divers, AOW certified or not, to certain dive sites until they have a minimum of 20 dives and have been through an assessment process for fitness to dive in locations with unpredictable and potentially challenging conditions to the uninitiated. We have an excellent safety record, although not everybody is a fan of the process.

Certification level + Number of Dives does not necessarily equate to "good diver" - or "good instructor" for that matter - but it also doesn't necessarily mean that a relatively inexperienced diver can not be trusted to dive independently, or an inexperienced instructor not be trusted with the lives of their students, for that matter, because this is down to the character of the individual.

Yes, courses are potential money-grabbers and if a dive centre chooses to insist on a particular certification without an actual local legal requirement to do so, then that policy is the sole decision of the dive operator. I think AOW (or equivalent) training can be excellent training, regardless of experience - it's not comprehensive, but any addition to the diving repertoire is a bonus, and most people seem to enjoy the course; even experienced divers will learn some new stuff if it's well taught.

I generally recommend getting an AOW (or equivalent) cert because - of course - for the potential value in training, but also for the reduction in hassle on dive vacations! Also, sometimes, it means extra commission for me! Having said that, the AOW course at the centres I've worked for has not been so much more expensive than simply making 5 dives, equipment included, books and certification fee extra.

As a dive professional, I use my judgement to decide who can dive in which location. As a dive customer - and I am still a customer! - divers should use good judgement to decide if the AOW (or equivalent!!) certification being promoted is worth the investment which is required. I believe this process should apply to all aspects of daily life, as well as the activities in which we engage, and there it lots of sound advice to be found on the Internet.

And also a lot of drivel. Of which I am undoubtedly guilty!

Take in all the available information, decide what is best for you

Cheers

C.

 

[Gombessa]

Requiring AOW doesn't seem to be a *common* practice, but it does happen. I have definitely been asked for and refused a 70ft recreational charter because I did not have an AOW card. Typically it is because of an inexperienced dive shop employee who is following a bright line rule. I don't know about other shops' excuses, but when it happened to me, it was not about selling courses or liability. He was simply misinformed about certification standards and using AOW as a proxy for dive experience; he point blank told me "If you're diving below 60ft, you're diving beyond your certification." That's just baldly wrong. Since this was an op I've used before, I cleared it up with the owner and even confirmed directly with a PADI training director over email.

You won't get too many useful responses asking "where" this happens, as it could be anywhere. Again, it's not the norm and isn't common practice, but dive enough in a variety of places and it will hit you eventually (I only dive in Monterey and Hawaii and HI is where it's happened). You just have to double-check when booking your dives that your charter doesn't have any such policy.

I've occasionally thought about biting the bullet and just getting an AOW card to avoid the hassle, but nowadays my opportunities to dive are limited enough where I would prefer my time/money be spent doing actual dives or progression classes rather than for appeasement of misinformed charters.

 

[So-Tx-Rich]

I agree, but with a caveat. IMHO, training is the foundation of beneficial experience.

As the saying goes: "Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect". Vince Lombardi

Experience alone is inconsistent - it is dictated by the whims of the individual and what they encounter. It is equally prone to negative development as it is to positive. Training provides a 'road map' or 'aiming point' for the realization of personal improvement from experience.

...and yes, I accept that training need not be a 'formal certification class'. It is the input, guidance and mentoring from the experienced to the inexperienced - whether paid for, or freely given.

Very true....my point was mostly pointing to the fact that rarely is a guy with 7 dives and an AOW card a more capable diver than a guy with a few hundred on a basic card

 

[DevonDiver]

Very true....my point was mostly pointing to the fact that rarely is a guy with 7 dives and an AOW card a more capable diver than a guy with a few hundred on a basic card

It depends how you define "capable". A diver with a few hundred dives on a basic card will undoubtedly be more comfortable in the water. That can be a good thing and a bad thing.

A few hundred dives is sufficient to permit a high degree of confidence to exist - but without training, there is likely to be a skill deficit in relation to that confidence - especially in regards to specialist activities, such as deep diving, wrecks, rescue skills etc.

In addition, (whilst depending upon the individual mindset) there may also be a shortage of refinement in their diving technique. Yes, they will develop equipment familiarity and a relaxed approach to diving, but - if uncorrected by training - there can be some significant bad practices left unchecked. I've seen more than a few 'experienced divers' who had atrocious buoyancy, low situational awareness and negligent dive planning and preparation - yet who had convinced themselves they were 'God's gift to diving'.

In contrast, very few divers with minimal experience have the tendancy to significantly over-assess they abilities. They are cognizant of their limitations, especially where continued education has presented them with further challenges. The balance of their confidence versus ability is more in tune with reality.

My point being, that experience is such a variable commodity and has an different impact on many sub-functions within a diver's capability-set. The variability comes into play when you consider the mindset/approach of the individual diver (the ego), along with the nature of the experiences they encounter.

Depending on mindset/approach, experience can help solidify the basic foundations of diving; equipment familiarity, situational awareness, buoyancy, control, trim, weighting etc. But unless a diver is actively seeking to utilize that experience for this development purpose, it can equally cause bad habits or stagnancy to set in.

Other diving skill sub-functions, such as emergency preparedness, risk awareness, attention to detail, adherence to taught safety protocols and procedures, can actively degenerate as experience increases. This is common. Unless a divers' experience includes occasional 'wake up calls', then it is too easy for them to assume that positive reinforcement from successful dives equals complete competence. Few divers encounter emergencies/incidents on their dives - so their 'experience development' in those scenarios is effectively zero. Training provides simulations of those occurences, which in turn, provides a type of wake up call, a challenge - ensuring that the diver retains a realistic self-appraisal of their capabilities.

What's "better"... a diver with huge confidence, who may have developed significant bad habits or has gaping, but unrecognized, holes in their skillset (especially in regards to emergency response), or a diver who understands their capabilities in relation to the dives they undertake and, whilst limited in capability, has more tendency to balance the challenges they undertake against a realistic risk assessment based on their ability?