Do you actually see people diving with pony bottles?

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I get the whole muscle-memory thing ... but having gone that route for a time I found it limited my choices. And at my age I tend to rely more on my brain than my muscles anyway ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, I recognize that it's entirely possible I will change my philosophy in the future, as you (and others) have. The logic of it all really appealed to me and seemed to offer an unambiguous answer when I raised the question of how to be a safer diver. But I recognize there is no perfect solution--everything has its pros and cons.
 
Bob, I recognize that it's entirely possible I will change my philosophy in the future, as you (and others) have. The logic of it all really appealed to me and seemed to offer an unambiguous answer when I raised the question of how to be a safer diver. But I recognize there is no perfect solution--everything has its pros and cons.

Everyone's a bit different in terms of how we approach what we do and how we think when we resolve problems. This applies to diving as much as it does the rest of what we do in life. I tried the DIR approach and while I saw value in it, decided it wasn't a good fit for me. That didn't stop me from recommending it to my students and others I've mentored over the years when I recognized it was a good fit for how they liked to do things, or how their mind worked.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no perfect solution ... only one that's a best fit for the individual ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
He chooses to use it to extend his dives while I think a pony should be for emergency bailout only.
YES!
I like diving with him and having him on the boat but I don't want to have problems with a diver misusing equipment so I told him to leave the pony home. My boat, my rules.
Very fair. Since he chooses to use a pony in that manner, and has shown that he cannot do so reliably, I would tell him the same thing. As others have said, I don't consider what you describe this diver doing as 'using a pony bottle'. It sounds like you don't either. :)
 
Your choice mate, but you still have to deal with a guy who's too stupid to keep himself from OOA ... even when he's carrying a backup air supply. What difference will it make next time he runs out of air? You'll still have to bail him out ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Or he dies and the lawyers find out he usually carries a redundant air source but the boat captain wouldn’t allow him to.
 
If someone runs out of air it isn't because they didn't have a redundant air source. A redundant air source is a band aid for a more serious problem. There are many ways to mitigate that problem. My first choice is to pay attention to your gear and your dive profile.
 
If someone runs out of air it isn't because they didn't have a redundant air source. A redundant air source is a band aid for a more serious problem.

Nah. I use a pony and it's definitely not a bandaid. I carry it simply because nothing is guaranteed. In the event that something totally unexpectable, unpredictable (can't think what that might be - but it's out there) comes along, it's not gonna bite my a$$. Never been OOA. Certainly am careful and situationally aware enough that I never expect to. But it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

I don't see carrying a pony on all dives as "a small addition." It needs to be donned and doffed, kept filled, kept in hydro and visual, tested, practiced with, etc.

Seriously? To don it I clip 2 clips. Same with doffing it. I fill it when I get to my destination off a full tank - maybe a couple minutes at the beginning of a week or two of diving. I practice with it on my last dive to empty it for transport. Hydro? Vis? I do the vis before I reinstall the valve. Since I fill it myself and know the entire history I know if it really needs a hydro. When/if it does it's no more problem than any of my other tanks and once every 5 years is a burden? Give me a break.

Oh, and it's certainly less of an addition than a camera/video setup, which does absolutely nothing for your safety. I also always dive with a DiveAlert, SMB/reel, 2 cutting tools, etc. Don't ever intend to need them - but should I find myself swept away by current, entangled or some such I'm sure I will feel they were worth the effort to have them along.
 
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Well, if we're diving based probability of catastrophic accident, 1:10,000 or whatever, the best mitigation is just don't dive if it's that much of a concern for you. You can be 100% sure of not dying on a dive if you stay out of the water. Sure, I could carry three of everything and have redundant redundancy and a near 100% chance of never having a catastrophic accident. I'm not going to all that hassle and expense for such a remote chance of a catastrophic failure.

I recall an article I read written by an Army Colonel years ago about Infantry soldiers in Iraq. His research indicated that soldiers in Desert Storm would forego equipment and other personal items in order to carry more ammo. I recall I was in that group he described. Uncle Sam issued us all 210 rounds of 5.56. I had that fear of getting in a firefight and running out of ammo. So I had our SAW gunner break me off about 4 feet of 5.56 belt ammo and I stuck it in my ruck. I "acquired" 3 boxes of .45 ammo from the range in Saudi. Even though I didn't have a .45, I figured if I found one on the battle field in a firefight, then I'd have ammo for it. After all, what could be more screwed up than being in a firefight, running out of ammo, finding a .45 on the body of a dead comrade, and not having any bullets for it? I hoarded a few extra grenades so I'd have more than the four we were issued. All that extra ammo and extra weight meant I had to leave out something else out of my ruck. The logic that you would certainly die if you got in a firefight and ran out of ammo made it all seem very reasonable at the time. You wouldn't die if you didn't have a bar of soap or extra pants or a rain coat. But the fact was, we were always resupplied ammo, and I hauled around a thousand extra rounds and a few pounds of grenades for a year that I never needed. I think I dumped it all in the "amnesty box" when we were at the airport in Saudi getting ready to come home. I actually needed the E-tool and the extra socks and the water and the shelter half and the food and the extra uniforms I left off to make room for the ammo more than I needed the ammo I was hoarding. Sure, the POSSIBILITY of ending up in a "Blackhawk Down" situation, cut off, and needing that ammo was always there. It was just that it was so remote as to be unreasonable given the circumstances. As every statistician knows, odds of probability are ALWAYS skewed by CIRCUMSTANCES. The chances of a red 32 being hit on the roulette wheel are always exactly the same on every wheel anywhere in the world....EXCEPT if the wheel is biased (circumstances). If you flip a coin 100 times and it comes up heads 99 times, the odds of it coming up heads the 100th time is still 50/50 UNLESS the coin is shaved (circumstances).

My buddies and I usually engage in the "same ocean same time" buddy system <gasp!>, and the wrecks we dive and spearfish are 50 and 70 feet (Liberty ship and Indra), and so far for the last 17 years it has worked out for me. I just don't have a problem being at 70 feet with no pony and a couple of buddies "somewhere" within 400 yards of me (hopefully). Apparently the "dumb divers die young" adage isn't always true. :) I figure the circumstances just don't validate the need.

I guess I'm just comfortable with accepting the risk. Each diver decides what his/her dive style is, and what his/her own idea of "favorable odds" is, and it's his/her prerogative. I'm not putting my "buddy" at any more risk because he's diving the same way I am. I'll usually run into them 2 or 3 times during the 35~40 minute dive and we're all OK with that.
 
Since I fill it myself and know the entire history I know if it really needs a hydro.

So you can detect metal fatigue in a cylinder just by looking at it? Man, you need to hurry up and patent that process before someone does it first and becomes a billionaire. All this time we've been sending them off to Duke Marine Lab for complicated tests in a water tank and using expensive sensitive equipment to measure expansion based on each manufacturers spec sheet. Then we have the labor and expense of steam drying them so the water used for the test doesn't corrode the interior. I don't know how you acquired this phenomenal ability, but you're sitting on a gold mine, Bro. :)

In fact, I bet you could license this process you've developed to PSI-PCI.
 
I my lexicon (solo and tech 40 certified--not original thoughts on my part) a pony bottle that is used to extend bottom time or facilitate a diver who is not trim, not weighted properly, and not physically fit, is a stage bottle.

I find is somewhat arrogant and somewhat insulting that divers associate being an 'Air Hog' with being either a poor diver (over weighted, not trim etc) or out of shape. The amount of air required also has a great deal to do with size. I have seen divers under 5' and maybe 100 lbs soaking wet as the expression go and I have also seen divers that are close to 7' and 300 lbs. Yet everyone is expected to use an 80cf tank.
 
If someone runs out of air it isn't because they didn't have a redundant air source. A redundant air source is a band aid for a more serious problem. There are many ways to mitigate that problem. My first choice is to pay attention to your gear and your dive profile.

As long as you feel confident of convincing his lawyer and a judge. I would like to point out, however, you didn't convince me.
 
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