Do you ever break the rules?

[sschlesi]

the folks who don't use dive flags where it's the law or carry knives where it's against the law

You're right, you didn't take it to a new level at all, several people beat you to it.


BTW, I'd be one of those law breaking non-dive flag divers. I've never even seen one used on a shore dive outside of a class setting.

 

[Sas]

Yeah, maybe. But I don't think state parks in Florida with very limited dimensions have anything to do with shell populations in the Gulf of Mexico. I thinks it's just a law. There's a bunch of scientific data that says shell populations are not at risk at all (save certain species which are collected commercially for food, curios).

Do you have a link to these studies you could post here? Cheers

It's not at all like the decimated fish populations worldwide or the damage to reefs and all life from pollution and global warming/coral bleaching. I appreciate your input. Somehow, collecting shells 20 miles down the shore from the state park really is about the same as doing so in the park when the shoreline is 600 miles long.

Well if you can collect shells outside of a state park 20 miles down the shore, why do you not go there?

 

[TMHeimer]

DevonDiver: Don't you dare call me stupid. Do you have ANY knowledge at all about mollusk
populations and risk of endangermant? Damaging the marine environment-are you kidding? 30 years ago it was"hey, that's a pretty shell-how will you get the guts out"? Now it's "You're not gunna kill it, are you? Look up the data on shell populations on the internet. You're not used to seeing divers collecting shells because it's TABOO! They"re NOT in danger! Greed? I loved to collect shells when I was a teenager in the '70s. Now that I got certified 4 years ago I find you can do this in ONE Caribbean country-Panama. Yet Queen Conchs are rare in Florida due to overfishing to provide for "conch fritters" on the menue. Divers collecting shells are such a small percentage of any destruction of mollusk populations it is laughable. Divers tend to be paranoid about anybody that does anything to alter the underwater environment. Hey, nobady cares what shells you take here in Canada. Look at the big picture. It's just become a "thing" to "take only pictures, leave only bubbles". It has NO environmental impact at all.
And I am a DM in training.

 

[TMHeimer]

Saspotato: Yes, contact Shell collecting ethics, about Cowries.info by F. Lorenz. I would appreciate it if you know how to post this.. Maybe you could do it for me--I'm 55 and not great with technology! There are other studies by Conchologists of America. Why don't I go out of the state park?-- Have you ever been on the Florida panhandle and looked for a place to dive that wasn't a state park? The same could be said for Connecticut, New York, and lots of the U.S. coastline. Not here in Nova Scotia.

 

[DevonDiver]

Damaging the marine environment-are you kidding? Divers tend to be paranoid about anybody that does anything to alter the underwater environment. Hey, nobady cares what shells you take here in Canada. Look at the big picture. It's just become a "thing" to "take only pictures, leave only bubbles". It has NO environmental impact at all.
And I am a DM in training.

As a trainee DM, you are setting yourself as a very poor role model. Breaking marine conservation laws. Scores a big, fat (1) in DM professionalism assessment.

Let me remind you....

What is a “role model”?
1. A “role model” is someone who other people base their behavior on because they respect and identify with the role model.
2. What are the characteristics and attributes of a good role model PADI Divemaster?
a. good dive skills
b. commitment to beliefs – there’s no question that the divemaster believes in responsible dive practices and PADI Standards because the individual follows them consistently.
g...inspires other divers to pattern their dive habits after the divemaster.

I suggest you er-examine you professional ethics...and see whether you can truly abide by the standards expected of you.

I don't care what your personal opinions are.... and I am saddened that you may soon become a representative of the dive pro world.

Is it just me, or is there a plague of over-inflated, under-professional DMTs on the forum currently?

 

[TMHeimer]

Oh, come on, stop that. Under-professional. Over-inflated.. Hey, I just answered a post. I'm sorry you're saddened. DIVE PRO??? Does that mean I'll make a living at it??? By the way, it was a State Park, not a Marine Reserve. How far it extended into the water is anyone's guess. And yes, I know all about PADI and their obsession with AWARE (which I HAPPEN to agree with). I am a PADI Master Diver at present, and a dedicated shell collector. So yes, I disagree with PADI about taking live shells. I have HEARD that Divemasters and Instructors have personally disagreed with PADI many times, but still do the job. Have you heard otherwise? I really just wish divers would stop obsessing about collecting shells. It really has NO impact. Oh, yeah-I wouldn't write that in on one of the 8 DM tests....MAYBE if I get my DM I can inspire other divers to become avid shell collectors and ever join Conchologists of America!

 

[vladimir]

Saspotato: Yes, contact Shell collecting ethics, about Cowries.info by F. Lorenz. I would appreciate it if you know how to post this.. Maybe you could do it for me--I'm 55 and not great with technology! There are other studies by Conchologists of America. Why don't I go out of the state park?-- Have you ever been on the Florida panhandle and looked for a place to dive that wasn't a state park? The same could be said for Connecticut, New York, and lots of the U.S. coastline. Not here in Nova Scotia.

This link will take you to the discussion you're citing, I think:

http://www.cowries.info/conservation.html

Dr. Lorenz's argument is, to some extent, of the now familiar form, a, b, and c do much more damage than (shell collectors, scuba divers, etc) so what we do is okay.

Dive- and even eco- tourism in the Maldives, the Red Sea and many other places has caused more damage than meets the eye: divers are not necessarily actively destroying reefs, but the hotels they stay in exploit fossil freshwater resources (these hotels were not there before) and produce masses of garbage (those plastic mineralwater-bottles wash ashore everywhere in the world and it is not the local population that buys them). Locations for tourism consume obscene amounts of diesel fuel to charge cylinders, keep generators and boats running etc etc, and in the end the accompanying waste is inevitably dumped somewhere, preferably on some other offshore reef, because financial pressures due to strong competition for the tourists prevent the appropriate ecological investment. 'Ecologically aware' tourism usually has a downside that is hidden to the tourist (again, there are plenty of studies to prove this).

All those who ever once ate a plate of shrimp have contributed to the destruction of reef and deep sea habitats, more so than any sensible shell collector. The gathering of 1 kg of Pacific shrimps entails the destruction of up to 50 kg of marine life, either by dragging it up, turning it upside down (by the chains which force theshrimps to jump into the nets that drift 20 cm over the sea bottom) or by causing deep water habitats to become polluted with nitrates that are stirred up by dredges. And what about those shrimps and fish from farms ? Well, let's see... what was there before the farm existed? Mangrove and coral reef habitats that died when people started building that shrimp/fish farm, as a result of the fertilizers for the algae (used for food) and the antibiotics which this sort of venture take. Note, by the way, that a lobster takes approximately seven years to grow up and 15 minutes to eat. A shell takes between a few months and two years to grow to adulthood and lasts forever when treated properly.

What I am trying to demonstrate here is that there are lots of things that have a negative impact on natural resources, but shell-collecting and dealing with them is certainly not a serious threat to nature. It is generally agreed that a handful of people picking up shells could never seriously reduce a shell population.

There is some validity to what he's saying here, in my opinion. It is silly for a diver--who has flown 10,000 miles to stay in a luxury hotel on a beach that was cleared of mangroves to accommodate him--to pretend he is having zero impact on the reef because he takes only pictures and leaves only bubbles. I choose to minimize my impact on the environment in a number of ways, in addition to the pictures/bubbles policy. I don't own a car, I live in small-ish apartments, etc. (Yes, I can afford a car and a big apartment.) But my willingness to spend money in, say, Indonesia, has an impact on the environment there. The best thing you can do for the environment is not reproduce. Ultimately, in my opinion, the planet cannot sustain the human population, and much of our efforts to minimize our impact are futile.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Back on topic

There are three ways I have "broken the rules"

1) FOOLISHLY

When I was newly certified, on a limited time frame holiday I chose to take sudafed and dive with a cold. End result.. perforated eardrum! Why did it happen? I listened to advice from and "experienced diver" and didn't have enough experience diving to "break the rules safely" BTW I did then and still accept that it was my decision and I am totally responsible for the result of that decision.


2) WISELY

When diving certain sites I do not follow the rule of 1/3rds. I know my air consumption, I know the site, I know the exit, how far it is to the exit and if a surface swim is safe. I choose to take the time to get the shot or extend my bottom time with in safe non deco limits. I don't need to surface with 30 minutes worth of air!

I don't do a buddy check before every dive. I have dived with the same buddies for years, know their gear and they know mine. If anything changes we let each other know. We normally even know when each other have gear service and hydros done.

I don't do a dive plan every dive. Same sites, same buddies we have already agreed on turn arounnds and don't need to discuss it unless something is different.

I have dived after taking Sudafed... many times now that I have the experience to decide when it is "safe" to do so. (If in doubt ... DON'T)

3) CALCULATED

I know the boat Op is restricting dive time for no other reason than he wants to get home earlier. I feel I paid a fair price for the service and quite happily ignored the time frame with the rest of the group. No one did anything unsafe and no one except the boat Op was inconvenienced but he was well paid for his time.

Dived off my buddy's computer. Dropped into a current at 30M on a tropical dive trip. My computer had turned off and could not be turned back on except on the surface. Rather than "bounce" or fight the current to get back to the boat my buddy (husband) and I decided to continue the dive. Our Air consumption is very close, we had the same size tanks and we stayed close (actually we held hands the entire dive). We watched his air closely and knew I could breathe off his occy if needed. When I turned on my computer on the surface and checked I had nearly enough air to do the same dive over again.



The "rules"are to keep divers safe. If we chose to ignore them we do so at our peril. IMHO It is possible to safely "break the rules" with enough experience and knowledge to make a reasonable decision. The newer the diver the more important the "rules" are.

My instructor's favourite expression was "Mother Ocean is a B*&ch NEVER ever trust Her and NEVER turn you back on her or she will get you!"

 

[LollyO]

Interesting thread!

someone please elaborate on thoughts discussed in this thread

1. One DD flag per diver ? I didnt know this was a law. Where do we find the copies of laws like that? Do they vary from state to state?

2. knives....what are the rules on knife restrictions...is it Mexico only?

3. dive lights..... what is it about dive lights?????

4. going deeper than 60 feet without a AOW cert.....would DAN cover you?

 

[vladimir]

4. DAN will cover you. DAN limits vary by policy. The Preferred and Master plans cover you to any depth. The Standard plan covers you to 130 feet. They have nothing to do with PADI or SDI limits, which have little to do with the real world. Nothing magical happens at 60 feet to make a dive riskier-it is an arbitrary depth. And--in many cases--nothing happens in AOW training to make a dive less risky, judging from many of the "advanced" divers I have seen.

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/insurance/plans.asp