Do you think computers encourage risky diving in new/ young divers?

[boulderjohn]

(ie. divers of yesteryear were more thoroughly trained in OW and dived more regularly,

1. What do you mean by "yesteryear"? 30 years ago? 40? 50?

2. Were they trained more thoroughly? It certainly took longer 40-50 years ago, but that was largely due to lectures being used more than home study. Were they really more thoroughly trained in actual scuba diving methodology? This is debated regularly on ScubaBoard. Yes, a half century ago training included breathing from a tank valve without a regulator, but was that a valuable skill? Instructors then had tremendous latitude in what they taught, and it is possible that an individual diver experienced something truly rigorous, while another had a pretty easy time. A thread a couple years ago compared standards from 30 years ago to standards today and discovered that pretty much nothing from 30 years ago has been excluded (except for one-regulator buddy breathing), whereas about 15 skills have been added.

3. Did they dive more regularly then? In the mid-1960s, the Los Angeles county certification program (the first true certification program) was so concerned that divers were getting certified and then never diving again that they decided to create a program that would teach them about different aspects of diving in the hope they would find something to spark an interest and keep them diving. They called it advanced open water certification. Soon after that, NAUI (which was born from that organization) started their own advanced certification for exactly that reason--too many of their divers were getting OW certified and then never diving again.

About that time, scuba certification was not very popular. NAUI, trying to survive on a non-profit basis, was doing so poorly for a while that it only stayed in business with a personal loan from Bill High (who later founded PSI-PCS). It then made the decision to pull back from national status and focus on California only. When it announced that decision, it canceled a planned instructor training program scheduled in Chicago. The Chicago NAUI branch was as angry as you might expect, so they formed a new agency--PADI. Eventually PADI also created an AOW program, for the same reason that LA County and NAUI had done so--trying to keep divers diving.

 

[TMHeimer]

1. What do you mean by "yesteryear"? 30 years ago? 40? 50?

2. Were they trained more thoroughly? It certainly took longer 40-50 years ago, but that was largely due to lectures being used more than home study. Were they really more thoroughly trained in actual scuba diving methodology? This is debated regularly on ScubaBoard. Yes, a half century ago training included breathing from a tank valve without a regulator, but was that a valuable skill? Instructors then had tremendous latitude in what they taught, and it is possible that an individual diver experienced something truly rigorous, while another had a pretty easy time. A thread a couple years ago compared standards from 30 years ago to standards today and discovered that pretty much nothing from 30 years ago has been excluded (except for one-regulator buddy breathing), whereas about 15 skills have been added.

3. Did they dive more regularly then? In the mid-1960s, the Los Angeles county certification program (the first true certification program) was so concerned that divers were getting certified and then never diving again that they decided to create a program that would teach them about different aspects of diving in the hope they would find something to spark an interest and keep them diving. They called it advanced open water certification. Soon after that, NAUI (which was born from that organization) started their own advanced certification for exactly that reason--too many of their divers were getting OW certified and then never diving again.

About that time, scuba certification was not very popular. NAUI, trying to survive on a non-profit basis, was doing so poorly for a while that it only stayed in business with a personal loan from Bill High (who later founded PSI-PCS). It then made the decision to pull back from national status and focus on California only. When it announced that decision, it canceled a planned instructor training program scheduled in Chicago. The Chicago NAUI branch was as angry as you might expect, so they formed a new agency--PADI. Eventually PADI also created an AOW program, for the same reason that LA County and NAUI had done so--trying to keep divers diving.

I was just philosophizing as to why apparently statistics show that the % of dive accidents over the years has remained pretty constant.
1. "yesteryear"-- 1960s, 70s, maybe into the early '80s?
2. "trained more thoroughly"- Yes we have all read the many threads on this. The idea of like 30 hours in the pool vs. 8 hours on a weekend now--but, as you say, how much of that was practical? I don't know. Maybe my wording was poor, but that's what I meant by saying "perhaps". I believe such things as Rescue skills were more apt to be included (apparently NAUI does include some of them in OW, so I've been told). The idea that there were OW1 and OW2 courses (I think), covering stuff which is now covered in AOW or other courses such as specialties-- which I assume many don't ever take.
3.. Being certified and never diving again (as you point out LA 1960s) would mean no accidents because they weren't diving at all I guess. By "more regularly" I was thinking of the many times I've read in dive magazines that diving "back then" was much more "exclusive"- ie. "young fit males", etc. A select "club" of dedicated divers. I have no idea--that's what I've read. I just assumed (perhaps wrongly?) that these oldtimers dived more regularly back then compared to the big % (so it seems from reading on SB) of today's divers who apparently don't?

Getting back to the old topic of "today vs. 1960", etc. (sorry to rehash). My own story is I took the PADI OW course over 3 weeks of pool & class at night (Tues. & Thurs.) then of course the ocean checkout weekend. I've read that decades ago there were fewer checkout dives and it was quite a while during the 30 days before you got into scuba gear. I suppose therefore the actual time spent on the basic skills may be comparable to that of today. I guess it is assumed today that we don't need all that "pre-scuba" pool stuff (like snorkeling a lot, free diving of sorts, multiple stamina tests?) because students who sign up should be very comfortable in water to begin with. In my time as a DM I found this obviously not true.
But back to me-- In assisting on weekend only OW courses I wound up thinking "Jeez I'm glad I took it over 3 weeks. There's an awful lot to absorb in one quick weekend, and I was extremely comfortable in water to begin with". I found that over a 3 week period I was able to pretty much absorb what I was taught pretty well-- had some time to go home and think about it. I extrapolate (perhaps again, wrongly) that if you have 30 hours of pool work in 1960, you will spend more time than simply doing a skill once (maybe marginally?) correctly and getting the box checked. Then we get into another old thread on what does the required "mastering" of a skill mean?

 

[TMHeimer]

In addition, a Sports Diver has been introduced to DSMB deploy, navigation, Dive Site Management, Nitrox and line-laying. By the time they qualify they should be familiar with shore and boat dives. After getting the qualification depth progression can be done certifying them to 35m.

BSAC question-- I know the instructors are volunteers and it is club based where newly certified divers continue to dive with their instructor/the club, etc. Think it's a really good method. I'm wondering where the money comes from for such things as--
--certification cards
--paper or online materials, written tests, medical forms, etc.
--record keeping (each diver have a "file" like other agencies?)
--certification of instructors (I voluntary work I know, but there has to be some sort of instructor course--like PADI's IDC, no?
Appreciate info.--couldn't find this when I googled BSAC.

 

[lermontov]

1. What do you mean by "yesteryear"? 30 years ago? 40? 50?

Yes, a half century ago training included breathing from a tank valve without a regulator, .

they still do that - i saw it on a recent movie

 

[Mike1967]

they

Who are "they"?

 

[Boston Breakwater]

What this is is just “flying your computer”. Many people do this these days. They give full trust to their DC to take care of them and ride the line without really giving much thought to what’s going on with gas reserve/depth/time. Computers have relieved a lot of the burden and trouble of having to think and pay attention to what’s going on, they do everything for you, probably way better and more accurately than you could do on your own. I suppose that could be a problem in the wrong hands; being used by people who have very little understanding of basic deco theory.
I can’t/won’t say it’s right or wrong, it seems to just be a sign of the times, people trust their lives more and more on machinery and devices.
Will it bite you in the ass someday? Maybe...If you’re going to trust your life on a device, at least make sure it’s a good one and learn how to use it well.

Hello. I would strongly suggest (2) computers, and a watch.
Cheers.

 

[Blackcrusader]

BSAC question-- I know the instructors are volunteers and it is club based where newly certified divers continue to dive with their instructor/the club, etc. Think it's a really good method. I'm wondering where the money comes from for such things as--
--certification cards
--paper or online materials, written tests, medical forms, etc.
--record keeping (each diver have a "file" like other agencies?)
--certification of instructors (I voluntary work I know, but there has to be some sort of instructor course--like PADI's IDC, no?
Appreciate info.--couldn't find this when I googled BSAC.

When people join a club they often pay membership fees. We also provided voluntary work so if the boat was in dry dock and you had a pair of hands you could be given a scraper and clean of the barnacles and what not. Many BSAC members were professionals in other areas so could offer their help.

 

[Vitesse2l]

BSAC has a national hq/admin office run full time which deals with members one to one if needed. We pay subs to our club locally and the national organisation.

The online side has recently (and expensively) been overhauled and pretty much everything can be accessed remotely. As a member my account brings up training records etc. Instructors get different levels of access. There's a wealth of online information through the club. They've been running webinars during the covid period for instance.

As mentioned above, locally we use the skills donated by members. As an example in my branch we have two GP's and their knowledge goes a long way in rescue training. Builders, electricians, web designers, it all helps.

 

[Khrissi]

Definately it needs to be emphasised that regular or frequent diving is key to building yr confidence / abilities / safety. From passing OW then 10 dives in Redsea, my confidence n ability shot up.

I sometimes train tree surgeons and doing a refresher course last week for 6 blokes - some whom hadn't climbed for 10 years, the gaps and difference in abilities was huge. K

 

[Blackcrusader]

Definately it needs to be emphasised that regular or frequent diving is key to building yr confidence / abilities / safety. From passing OW then 10 dives in Redsea, my confidence n ability shot up.
I sometimes train tree surgeons and doing a refresher course last week for 6 blokes - some whom hadn't climbed for 10 years, the gaps and difference in abilities was huge. K

Last year I did over 200 dives but have not dived since November. Going out this June for a few days of shore and boat diving.
The first shore dive will be a shallow max depth 20m or so check dive. I also have a new BCD to get worn in and adjusted a bit more.
I normally do a dive vacation where I do 30 - 50 or more dives in a 10 - 20 day dive vacation and do that several times a year. Not really fair to compare my diving skills to the diver who really does not dive during the year except on their vacation. As long as they are competent I will dive with them.