Do you think computers encourage risky diving in new/ young divers?

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BSAC question-- I know the instructors are volunteers and it is club based where newly certified divers continue to dive with their instructor/the club, etc. Think it's a really good method. I'm wondering where the money comes from for such things as--
--certification cards
--paper or online materials, written tests, medical forms, etc.
--record keeping (each diver have a "file" like other agencies?)
--certification of instructors (I voluntary work I know, but there has to be some sort of instructor course--like PADI's IDC, no?
Appreciate info.--couldn't find this when I googled BSAC.

BSAC operates at several levels (ignoring overseas franchises):

Branches. These are the local clubs which actually go diving. As a sideline, to maintain numbers, they train people. This training is mostly Ocean Diver, Sports Diver and Dive Leader but can extend up to CCR, boat handling, etc. The branches are run by an elected committee and almost completely independent of BSAC, have their own bank accounts etc. If they wanted to affiliate with SDI, the SAA or whoever then they can. Small branches might have a dozen members, larger ones a hundred or (maybe) two. Some own premises, boats, most have kit for trainees to borrow.

Regions. The country (and beyond...) is split up into several (half a dozen or so) large ‘Regions’. These are sort of of HQ outreach, but not quite There is a coach and a couple of people who organise training covering many branches. These courses (skills development courses or SDCs) are advertised on the BSAC website and open to any member of BSAC suitably qualified. Typically higher end training such as Trimix or CCR will be done at the region level. Also slightly more awkward parts of Dive Leader that work best with a larger group of students or Advanced Diver which is less common.

Instructor Training Scheme. This is essentially a cross region effort at training new instructors. In practice many of the same people are involved but it is more coordinated at the HQ level than regional events. Note that instructor grades are parallel to diving grades.

All the people involved above are unpaid volunteers. Many don’t get expenses.

HQ. There are a dozen or so paid employees in an office in NW England who run central operations. The key services they provide are issuing the qualifications, providing the training materials, marketing and taking money. They keep a database of members, run a website and provide advice. There is at least one full time employee to provide diving advice. Within the HQ umbrella there are various (unpaid volunteer) committees that actually decide what the policies of the club are, design the training and so forth.

There are also ‘Centres’ which are commercial dive schools. They are logically sort of like branches but actually the kind of Dive Op you will all be familiar with. There is a monthly magazine too.

Following the money....

Joe Blogs wants to learn to dive. He Googles a bit and finds bsac.com. There he uses a branch/centre finder to discover branches local to him. Maybe he looks at the web sites of the branches, ignores the ones last updated in 2018 and asks the tool to send off an enquiry.

Someone at the branch gets the enquiry and invites Joe along to an evening at the pool (branches typically hire an hour or two of pool time from a local authority or school on a weekly basis). Joe gets booked in for a try dive. Maybe a fee, say £10, is charged - this goes to branch. They will have used forms designed by HQ to try to have Joe sign his life away.

Joe thinks this is great and wants to learn with the branch. They sign him up via the BSAC HQ web site (formally a big book of forms provided by HQ). He pays an annual membership to HQ (about £60) and a monthly membership to the branch (£18.50 in our case - covers the pool, kit, loses on half empty boats etc). He buys the first level training materials (a couple of books and a folder for his training record) through the branch but from HQ for £40.

If lucky and enthusiastic, Joe turns up every week for 12 weeks and a couple of weekends and gets trained by instructors within the branch. Once signed of by the branch he receives a plastic card (paid for with the training materials) from HQ and they put his qualification in a database.

Each year for a couple of years Joe buys another set of materials (£30) and ticks off the training for another level. Maybe he finds all the instructors are concentrating on brand new divers (Grow You Club!) and he goes to a commercial Centre for a course, possibly on holiday in Malta, Spain or Egypt.

After a couple of years Joe decides he wants to be do shorter deco, maybe be less narked or do dives impractical with 15 and a pony etc. He wants to do accelerated deco, then trimix, CCR and so forth. Some branches can do these in house. Some not. Those that do may advertise them as regional SDCs to get worthwhile numbers. Say he does ADP with me. The materials are about £100 (HQ make you buy tables) there will the usual entry and gas costs. Maybe the diving happens on a trip to Scapa and there is no extra cost. Later Joe does CCR with South West Region. He borrows a AP CCR from HQ (£30 postage) and pays about £500 for materials, expenses etc to the region running the course. They are supposed to be just covering costs. When I did trimix my course fee included gas. People doing training for a region tend to be more concerned with expenses. If I am training someone I will dive with I don’t care. If the bloke from SW is running 8 trimix courses a year he will get poor quite quickly and probably never dive again with most of the students.

At some point the branch realises Joe is keen and sends him on the Instructor foundation Course run by the ITS team, then get him reaching in the pool, then on the Open Water Instructor Course to teach outside, then through the exams to have another full instructor. After that there is Advanced Instructor and First Class Diver if extremely keen.
 
Thanks very much. Very interesting set-up.
 
Hello. I would strongly suggest (2) computers, and a watch.
Cheers.
There’s a second component to using a watch that makes the system complete, anyone care to guess what that is?
Chances are that if someone is flying a computer to the max and it craps out sending them to their second computer and that one also craps out, a watch isn’t going to do you much good except maybe tell you the time of day. If anyone thinks they are going to continue a dive on tables after two computers crap out they will be way off the charts.
 
There’s a second component to using a watch that makes the system complete, anyone care to guess what that is?
Chances are that if someone is flying a computer to the max and it craps out sending them to their second computer and that one also craps out, a watch isn’t going to do you much good except maybe tell you the time of day. If anyone thinks they are going to continue a dive on tables after two computers crap out they will be way off the charts.
Not necessarily, if they are diving a square profile (or reasonably square one). On most of the 30-40 charter boat dives I've done I've used (one) computer and watch and tables. All OK, no exceeding tables' NDLs.
 
Sorry if this rehashes previous posts in the threads, but I suspect many current divers are not able to make a transition to tables. I was trained on PADI tables in the late 1990s, but haven't used them much in the last 20 odd years. Recently I started diving nitrox and (perhaps shame on me) wasn't even trained on tables for e.g. oxygen tracking.
 
Not necessarily, if they are diving a square profile (or reasonably square one). On most of the 30-40 charter boat dives I've done I've used (one) computer and watch and tables. All OK, no exceeding tables' NDLs.
You didn’t really answer my question; For the benefit of readers who have never used tables, what is the other thing you need besides a watch to do tables, unless you happen to have some fancy watch that can do two things?
The other thing you’re not considering; Tables dictate that the dive starts the moment you begin your descent. The time it takes to get to depth all gets logged to the deepest depth. When NDL time comes up at the deepest depth it is time to go up at the prescribed ascent rate to the suggested safety stop. On the other hand, a computer will account for every depth on the way down to the deepest depth adding time plus it will give credit for bottom fluctuations so that means the tables and computer will automatically be off at the very start of the dive especially if it takes a while to get to depth.
The computer will credit you during the entire dive including the descent and ascent whereas the table will go off the deepest depth alone.
Tell me how many modern divers set their bezel on their old school style dive watch and pay attention to it (plus look at the other magic device I mentioned) while diving with a computer (or two)?
 
You didn’t really answer my question; For the benefit of readers who have never used tables, what is the other thing you need besides a watch to do tables, unless you happen to have some fancy watch that can do two things?
The other thing you’re not considering; Tables dictate that the dive starts the moment you begin your descent. The time it takes to get to depth all gets logged to the deepest depth. When NDL time comes up at the deepest depth it is time to go up at the prescribed ascent rate to the suggested safety stop. On the other hand, a computer will account for every depth on the way down to the deepest depth adding time plus it will give credit for bottom fluctuations so that means the tables and computer will automatically be off at the very start of the dive especially if it takes a while to get to depth.
The computer will credit you during the entire dive including the descent and ascent whereas the table will go off the deepest depth alone.
Tell me how many modern divers set their bezel on their old school style dive watch and pay attention to it (plus look at the other magic device I mentioned) while diving with a computer (or two)?
I think I see what you're saying. The odd time I have done charters to depth (80', etc. more, less) I am one of those guys who carries both watch and computer and does look at both.
Yes, I see how the tables and computer will be off a bit due to depth changes going down (and up), and small variations even on a mostly square profile. For me, it hasn't been a big issue since I'm usually fast down the anchor line (buddy permitting of course) and on the bottom looking for shells. The fact that my nose isn't in the sand unless grabbing a shell means my "average" deepest depth may be 77', not the 80' I record on my depth gauge. This may kind of offset the extra time the computer records since on tables you probably don't count ascent time (at least that's what I learned).
Not sure if that helps in answering your question. I always have tried to not be too close to the NDL tables limit or 0 computer bottom time. I guess if I had to choose one of the two to rely on more it would be the computer.
My current dive watch has no bezel, like the first of 4 I've owned (lost 2, broke one). But, I never used it anyway, just remembered what time it was when I started my descent & ascent. Do that on my usual shallow shore dives as well, but just for record keeping-- don't really need anything IMO on dives to 30' or less.
 
I think I see what you're saying. The odd time I have done charters to depth (80', etc. more, less) I am one of those guys who carries both watch and computer and does look at both.
Yes, I see how the tables and computer will be off a bit due to depth changes going down (and up), and small variations even on a mostly square profile. For me, it hasn't been a big issue since I'm usually fast down the anchor line (buddy permitting of course) and on the bottom looking for shells. The fact that my nose isn't in the sand unless grabbing a shell means my "average" deepest depth may be 77', not the 80' I record on my depth gauge. This may kind of offset the extra time the computer records since on tables you probably don't count ascent time (at least that's what I learned).
Not sure if that helps in answering your question. I always have tried to not be too close to the NDL tables limit or 0 computer bottom time. I guess if I had to choose one of the two to rely on more it would be the computer.
My current dive watch has no bezel, like the first of 4 I've owned (lost 2, broke one). But, I never used it anyway, just remembered what time it was when I started my descent & ascent. Do that on my usual shallow shore dives as well, but just for record keeping-- don't really need anything IMO on dives to 30' or less.
The answer I’m looking for is “depth gauge”. A watch is worthless for diving (except to tell you what time of day it is) without some sort of depth gauge.
If your computer craps out you better have some way of determining your depth. I would rather have a depth gauge than a watch if given the choice of one or the other if my computer craps out. If your computer dies the dive is over and it’s time to come up, no exceptions. You can always use your smallest bubbles as a way to time your ascent and you can always count one-one thousand or sing your favorite song to gauge a rough three minute stop, but if you have no way of determining depth besides your dead computer you’re screwed.
 
The answer I’m looking for is “depth gauge”. A watch is worthless for diving (except to tell you what time of day it is) without some sort of depth gauge.
If your computer craps out you better have some way of determining your depth. I would rather have a depth gauge than a watch if given the choice of one or the other if my computer craps out. If your computer dies the dive is over and it’s time to come up, no exceptions. You can always use your smallest bubbles as a way to time your ascent and you can always count one-one thousand or sing your favorite song to gauge a rough three minute stop, but if you have no way of determining depth besides your dead computer you’re screwed.

You said, "If your computer dies the dive is over and it’s time to come up, no exceptions." Good advice for a novice diver. If you're more experienced why end a perfectly good dive? Just go shallower to say 30 or 25 ft and finish the dive assuming your SPG is working. You don't need to worry about NDL. You can estimate the depth and you can estimate 3 minutes for that non-mandatory safety stop.
 
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