Does a dive flag protect you? Think again.

[NudeDiver]

Personally, I believe Dan is spot on. Many of you who do not believe that there are boaters out there who will knowingly run as close to a dive flag as they can, knowing what the flag stands for, need to spend more time diving the reefs along S. Fla. There ARE people who hate divers and have the attitude that it would be their tough luck if they got run over. This latest incident will actually enable that attitude even more, especially if the Doctor gets away with it, which I bet he will. And you know something else? I'd bet good money that the Doctor knew exactly what both the American dive and Alpha flags mean.

Maybe the local divers can take up a collection and use the money to arrange for some "private justice" to be administered.

 

[Nemrod]

I've seen what you describe from PWC drivers as well, but where I live 95% of the PWC owners live on or are guests of those who live on the lake and therefore more aware of and more apt to follow the laws and local rules. In my experience it's the boaters who are a bigger issue ignoring no wake times, traveling the wrong direction in designated areas, etc. So does that mean all boats should be banned from the lake? No, not any more than PWC should be banned - but they should both be expected to follow the rules and at a minimum be made aware of them. As a PWC owner I get more annoyed than you do (believe it or not) when I see people on them acting in the way you describe. Because the affect of that is verifying beyond any doubt that ALL OF US are that way, which is in fact as far from the truth as saying all boat owners who carry guns on board are narrow minded and jump to conclusions about people without knowing them.

I am sorry but many people who fish far offshore carry a shot gun or similar, if you did not know that, to bad for you. It is not illegal, it is a constitutional right, it is not your business. It is your business to behave, something the vast majority of jet skiers cannot seem to do.

N

 

[danvolker]

Bottom line - effort is something that compounds. One person helping or giving.... Well you get the gist - it can grow exponentially. Berating your fellow divers by essentially stating their motives don't meet your standards or aren't good enough.... just boggles me.



I can't say that after insulting those that are trying to do something, no matter how small in your eyes, by stating they want to make you puke, that they will want to follow you.

I do not believe anyone on this board should be doing a charitable act, for the praise or adulation of strangers. They should certainly not get involved with the dive flag issue because of the liklihood I, or you, would say nice things about them...they should be doing something like getting legislation against dangerous boaters, because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO.

On the issue of wanting divers to follow me in this proposed movement, I am not the type of person to be useful for this role. What I can do, is pull up an idea that can get people to consider an issue, that they may otherwise have overlooked. I have strong opinions about certain dive issues, and I can talk passionately about these issues. In a case like this, the clear anger and desire for action I have, will alienate some divers---but it is also a catalyst for further discussion. And I want to make absolutely certain that everyone in this discussion is aware, that EDUCATION WITHOUT the addition of SEVERE PUNITIVE MEASURES, will be a profound waste of their time.....and this time is crucial....you and anyone who cares enough to help, needs to choose things to spend time on wisely.

Again, you are attacking those that would otherwise be an asset to accomplishing bigger goals. DivingPrincessE, started a petition group on FaceBook. So far with her one group, began on behalf of ChadCarney and his awareness plan, she has united 300+ divers. That my friend, is a real group consisting of real people and real divers. You take that group and give them something bigger and even more worthy to be a part of, you don't think that they would? Personally I think they would. However, they are going to care naught if they are being attacked, berated, or what have you.

If we can get severe penalties for flag violations ( more like a DUI ), then this effort you speak of would be tremendously beneficial to make the offending boaters aware that they may lose their boat and much more, if they run over a dive flag.
I have no doubt that over 90% of the boaters I have seen running over dive flags in the last 30 years, knew damn well what a dive flag was...in most instances I can recall, the boater just did not care enough to be looking where they were going...and in a smaller but significant portion of past experiences, the boaters were running over the flag on purpose, knowing full well it would upset the divers. I even had one occaision when I came up from a decompression dive over a ship 260 feet below me, where a fisherman came by within 10 feet of me ( my expectation being he was going to offer a ride or something) and then rather than slow down, they cast lines out, and one actually hooked my fins!!!!
I do not believe that education has any hope to make diving significantly safer, until the legal punishments and enforcement probability are exponentially increased.

Speeding is one thing, looking for pedestrians to run over is another. Personally, I think too many boaters buy boats but have no clue as to the "rules of the road", if you will.

I have never actually seen a boater "purposely hit" a diver. Many may think it is funny to run over a flag though....and huge numbers just don't care if they do or not.

My opinion on this issue is education followed by stiffer penalties but it starts with education. You take that drivers test and you are required to know the road signs and what each of them means. Following that, I believe when you get a boat one should be required to pay for and a take a USCG class. I took one, enjoyed it and found it to be very beneficial.

By requiring one to take a class and pass a test you have created monies for law enforcement to better enforce the laws and you have educated those that otherwise would not know any better.

Sorry, I don't buy this. There is alot more money that can be raised by stiff fines. More importantly, I believe most boaters know they should not run close by a dive flag...the issue is, they just don't care enough to look out for flags. If they were afraid of the consequences, then they WOULD watch for flags!
Regarding more education....have you ever gone to "school" for a speeding ticket? Please don't tell me that the class you took had any significant impact on the driving you did afterwords. Maybe finding a good attorney will have an impact, or a radar detector...but this is not the impact desired by the state.

Now do I have the time to take on this project and bring it to the next level? No, I do not at this time, as much as I'd like to. However, I am sure there are others who would be keen to head up something of this nature.

And I am hoping there will be many others who will take interest in this thread, and decide to get involved. And while I disagree with several of your points, I can't thank you enough, for actually taking the time to get involved in this discussion, knowing this will help motivate others to do more.

Thanks again,
Dan V

 

[danvolker]

I interpereted Dan's argument to be that "... that the only correct action is to fight the government as a mob to get stricter penalties."

I do actually think out my grammar and sentence structure, prior to submitting...and I have no idea how you could possibly have interpreted me in this manner......I wanted strongly motivated voters to fight hard for needed change in the law. The government works for us. Sometimes it is hard to change what they have done before, and because of this, it often requires a big effort. If no one on scubaboard is mad about what just happened, then the chance of them working hard to change something, is not very good.

Dan

 

[ScubaSteve]

...and I have no idea how you could possibly have interpreted me in this manner......

All I can say is that when you read all of your posts, this is where I ended up. I do not think I am that far off though.

I am trying to get them to form a large group, with a mob mentality ( being mad can be a powerful motivator for action) , to lobby effectively for sweeping and effective legislative changes.

It is about boaters "fearing" dive flags, or more specifically, fearing the ramifications of being caught speeding close by a dive flag.

First, it is not practical to attempt to enforce a law that has no punitive measure associated with it. The present laws on flags are a cruel joke for divers.

 

[Gary D.]

I think the last thing we need our government to do right now is deal with Dive Flag issues. But then I guess they could put the economy, a couple of wars and sneeky little jerks with bombs on hold to deal with it.

I am in my 5th decade of diving. The issues we have now with Dive Flag respect are the same issues we had 5 decades ago. It's just that there are more boaters and MORE DIVERS as well fighting for the same space.

Many moons ago there was a fisherman that collected a very nice homemade speargun of mine. On the third or fourth pass I shot. The spear went right through the hull and I'll bet that was the last time that he went after divers. Yea he knew. He was yelling at us to get away from HIS fishing area. Monteray Bay is plenty big enough for everyone but he didn't want to play nice. We were hoping he would have called the police but he didn't.

The bottom line is there are always going to be those who don't respect anyone or anything and could care less about the outcome. Drunk drivers should be a good example of that. Take some responsibility for your own actions and be more cautious where you dive. Mobs in Washington will do nothing but get people arrested.

Gary D.

 

[Jayde323]

Another fact for you, is that if you were on a boat ruinning a reef top, at 30 mph, you would be shocked at how hard it is to see a dive flag----they are obscured at distance by waves, and at this speed, when you finally see them, they are insanely close ( seconds or less)....If you were not really looking hard, you would miss them.

Maybe we need to do something like this..... http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ma...ive-flag-project-size-really-does-matter.html Would be a pain in the arse to lug around but definately more visible.

 

[NudeDiver]

Personally, I would rather face the risk of being run over by a dumbass in a boat who ignored my dive flag (either intentionally or out of ignorance), than invite the government into my hobby unnecessarily.

Consider - the great economist Milton Friedman, commenting on the original Microsoft anti-trust case, basically said that all of the other computer companies bitching about Microsoft were fools. Up until that point, the industry had relatively (and amazingly) little government oversight. But as a result of that case, they would all forever be tormented by meddling government regulators. Lo and behold, that's just what happened.

At the end of the day, I'll risk death by citizen over death by government any time.

 

[NudeDiver]

Many moons ago there was a fisherman that collected a very nice homemade speargun of mine. On the third or fourth pass I shot. The spear went right through the hull and I'll bet that was the last time that he went after divers. Yea he knew. He was yelling at us to get away from HIS fishing area. Monteray Bay is plenty big enough for everyone but he didn't want to play nice. We were hoping he would have called the police but he didn't.

Probably a bad move. The police may not take any interest in ******* boaters, but they will certainly take an interest in someone shooting deadly weapons at them. If he DID call the police and you all had a little get together, it would probably go a lot like this:

Gary D: blah, blah, blah, so I shot my speargun at his boat.

Oink, Oink: So, you admit you shot your speargun at him?

Gary D: yeah, that's right. He was harassing us.

Oink, Oink: That's all I needed to hear. You're under arrest for assault with a deadly weapon. Put your hands behind your back.

 

[Gilldiver]

1) A long line of frayed nylon line is great for catching boaters props. Once fully caught, you can negotiate the price for clearing up the problem they have.

2) Idiots are everywhere, learn to be aware of them. When all else fails, a 25mm flare pistol can get their attention with a red flair in their wheel house.

As for Idiots, explain this one to the insurance company and Coast Guard.

YouTube - boat collision