Does a dive flag protect you? Think again.

[Byte Me]

Nope, not wrong, just my observation, they do not follow the rules, most are rented for a few hours. The renter has no investment or training or boating knowledge. They just jump on and blast off, ignore no wake zones, ignore all navigational rules, pass on left or right, zoom around in a circle erratically, jump my wake inches from my boat at high speed, no concept of right way or stand on vessel and in general act like idiots. Often they are drunk as well. If this sounds like being to inclusive, well, I have never seen ----ever---a jet skier who did not behave as I just described. And, at the boat ramps, they are worse, obnoxious, foul language, every sentence starts with the F adjective, cannot wait their turn, zoom around in the docking and loading area. Every single one I have ever seen behaves exactly this way, all the time 100%. What--you don't agree?

OBTW, your screen name, lol, exemplifies the personality type.

N

I've seen what you describe from PWC drivers as well, but where I live 95% of the PWC owners live on or are guests of those who live on the lake and therefore more aware of and more apt to follow the laws and local rules. In my experience it's the boaters who are a bigger issue ignoring no wake times, traveling the wrong direction in designated areas, etc. So does that mean all boats should be banned from the lake? No, not any more than PWC should be banned - but they should both be expected to follow the rules and at a minimum be made aware of them. As a PWC owner I get more annoyed than you do (believe it or not) when I see people on them acting in the way you describe. Because the affect of that is verifying beyond any doubt that ALL OF US are that way, which is in fact as far from the truth as saying all boat owners who carry guns on board are narrow minded and jump to conclusions about people without knowing them.

 

[ScubaSteve]

And now we've come full circle back to Dan's arguement.

The law by itself does no good without the teeth to back it up.

The only way to back it up is to bring awareness to it, on both sides of the coin.

We all need to work together.

I interpereted Dan's argument to be that "bringing increased awareness was fruitless and that the only correct action is to fight the government as a mob to get stricter penalties."

Yes we need to work together however stricter penalties mean nothing if the person does not care. If they DO care, then awareness is likely all that is required. And if they do not care, then we need somebody there to catch them. I think the teeth you are referring to is the increased enforcement (or at least that is what I would have meant) of the existing law and penalty rather than creating stronger penalties.

 

[masterof0]

Yes we need to work together however stricter penalties mean nothing if the person does not care. If they DO care, then awareness is likely all that is required. And if they do not care, then we need somebody there to catch them. I think the teeth you are referring to is the increased enforcement (or at least that is what I would have meant) of the existing law and penalty rather than creating stronger penalties.

To Steve's point, I think there are a lot more people who are out there who do care, but have not been educated on what the expectations are. Speaking from someone who has been boating for a while now, I can tell you that I knew what the "diver down" flag meant, but if I saw the alpha flag I would have had no clue what it meant until about six months ago when I got certified. Taking it a step further, even though I knew what the diver down flag meant, I did not have any idea as to waht the distance I was expected to keep was. Now that I know, I definitely treat it accordingly and share the information with other boat owners who don't know/understand either. So, if their knowledge means that I have made a change to even 25% of boat owners that I know through education, then it is definitely a step in the right direction. For those that choose to ignore the laws and regulations, the only way to get through to them is through law enforcement, but you have ot have the "feet on the street" to enforce the laws. I don't know about you, but this is one of the areas that has been hit hardest in my area by the economy.... My point being, I agree that laws and regulations are important, but if there isn't anyone to enforce them, they mean little to nothing. Knowledge to all is important so if education can impact even a small percentage who, for lack of better words, do care, then that is time and effort well spent.

 

[Cave Diver]

I interpereted Dan's argument to be that "bringing increased awareness was fruitless and that the only correct action is to fight the government as a mob to get stricter penalties."

Yes we need to work together however stricter penalties mean nothing if the person does not care. If they DO care, then awareness is likely all that is required. And if they do not care, then we need somebody there to catch them. I think the teeth you are referring to is the increased enforcement (or at least that is what I would have meant) of the existing law and penalty rather than creating stronger penalties.

Thats why I said it came full circle, from needing stricter penalties, to awareness, back to stricter penalties. There is no one solution. Some people may simply be made aware in order to care and obey. Others wont care until it has repercussions they aren't willing to live with for improper behavior. For the people that will care simply by being informed, stricter punishment will not be an issue because they will be in compliance. For the other ones, let the punishment fit the crime.

Maybe something along the lines of:

Any operator of a powered vessel, whether by sail or motor that encroaches into the area protected by a diver down or alpha flag as specified by statute ####, whether knowingly or unknowingly, faces fines. Any bodily injury or death caused as a result of such action may additionally result in seizure of vessel, or imprisonment as provided by law.

Edit: I'm not a lawyer, or a politician and I have not stayed in a Holiday Inn recently. Just throwing an idea out there.

 

[NudeDiver]

So, here we have a supposedly "active" group of Internet divers, who can sit back and do nothing over an incident like this Rob Murphy Tragedy...and where whining about better education about dive flags is the "easy out" a few "guilty" members of this huge group want to show thier solidarity with.

There use to be a time where you would hang for stealing a man's horse. These days, you have people clammering about equal rights for horses.

Until society is willing to execute anyone who unlawfully kills someone, there isn't much that can be done. If you want to bitch, then bitch about the soft underbelly of America.

 

[SteveAD]

[sarcasm]Here's a thought. What if we call a dive flag violation an attack that merits a self defense response. Then the exclusion zone would be equivalent to the range of whatever weapons are on the boat.[/sarcasm]

Seriously though. Education/ flyers/ posters are the only things that might change boaters behaviour, and the best weapon to use in gross incursion like Nemrod described is a video camera. Be truely blatant about the fact that you are recording their actions and odds are they will rapidly unass the area. Plus you have proof to hand to the LEOs.

 

[Cave Diver]

Another thing to keep in mind, that as several people have pointed out, some of the vessels (boats or PWC) are private, some are commercial, some are rentals. Since all vessels have to be registered a small fee ($3?) could be added to the process and require all commercial and private vessels to display a small divers down/alpha flag sticker next to their registration as a reminder of what the flags look like.

Rental boats/pwc would require a seperate waiver by the renter who will be operating it, making sure they understand the penalties for dive flag violation.

Money raised from the extra $3 could go towards awareness, safety and education programs.


*CD sitting back and waiting for the flames from people not wanting extra taxes or regulations on their boats*

 

[Cave Diver]

[sarcasm]Here's a thought. What if we call a dive flag violation an attack that merits a self defense response. Then the exclusion zone would be equivalent to the range of whatever weapons are on the boat.[/sarcasm]

A speargun through the hull would be a good deterrent and provide a new wreck to dive.

 

[Zieg]

Personally, I believe Dan is spot on. Many of you who do not believe that there are boaters out there who will knowingly run as close to a dive flag as they can, knowing what the flag stands for, need to spend more time diving the reefs along S. Fla. There ARE people who hate divers and have the attitude that it would be their tough luck if they got run over. This latest incident will actually enable that attitude even more, especially if the Doctor gets away with it, which I bet he will. And you know something else? I'd bet good money that the Doctor knew exactly what both the American dive and Alpha flags mean.

 

[captain]

I've seen what you describe from PWC drivers as well, but where I live 95% of the PWC owners live on or are guests of those who live on the lake and therefore more aware of and more apt to follow the laws and local rules. In my experience it's the boaters who are a bigger issue ignoring no wake times, traveling the wrong direction in designated areas, etc. So does that mean all boats should be banned from the lake? No, not any more than PWC should be banned - but they should both be expected to follow the rules and at a minimum be made aware of them. As a PWC owner I get more annoyed than you do (believe it or not) when I see people on them acting in the way you describe. Because the affect of that is verifying beyond any doubt that ALL OF US are that way, which is in fact as far from the truth as saying all boat owners who carry guns on board are narrow minded and jump to conclusions about people without knowing them.

There is one local river near by that I will not take my boat on weekends. The PWC are like like a swarm of mosquitoes waiting to pounce on the next victim. They use the whole width of the river no matter which way the are going. The sad part is the law enforcement boats just watch them and wait for the next accident. And most if not all are owned not rented.