Donating the "primary" regulator

[rx7diver]

I have experienced two occasions IRL when a diver panicked thinking he was out of air. The first time, the diver and I were in rec gear. The second time, the diver and I were in tech gear, at the start of a tech training dive. In both cases, I responded as I was taught in my open water course. Grab the diver firmly by the shoulder of his BC shoulder strap (or by the shoulder strap of his harness) and hold onto him securely, remove my first stage from my mouth and shove it into his mouth, put my AIR 2 (or backup second stage) into my mouth, establish eye contact with him to help him calm down as we slowly ascend to the surface.

The tech dive incident wasn't completely smooth, though. I was wearing a long hose "wrapped" per my Basic Cave training, and a snorkel on my mask. Giving the diver my primary dislodged my mask slightly, and my mask flooded. No issue, really, except I needed to clear my mask to establish eye contact. And the water (Gilboa) was a bit cold.

For the tech dive incident, our instructor was right there with us. But, dealing with clearing a flooded mask to stare into the eyes of the panicking diver, I completely missed when our instructor circled behind the panicking diver and shut down the valve to his free-flowing regulator! Perceptual narrowing, maybe?

In both cases, each diver seemed to calm down very quickly as soon as he had a working reg in his mouth.

I've described both of these incidents in a bit more detail, IIRC, on some ancient SB posts.

rx7diver

 

[johndiver999]

When the OOA diver panics, you WANT him as far away as possible so he cannot take the other reg out of your mouth, punch, slap, choke or otherwise cause you to drown. If he bolts to the surface, it's BETTER if he is 5 or 6 feet away so when the reg gets ripped out of his mouth (I guarantee the threaded connection to your first stage is stronger than his teeth) he's not close enough to grab you by the BC and drag you to the surface with him anyway.

Even if he does somehow manage to retain the reg on his out of control rocket to the surface, you can at least get yourself as negative as possible to slow the ascent and when he does breach the surface you are at least still at like 5 feet deep or whatever (1.15 ATA is better than 1.00 ATA). At this point take a deep breath, shut down your tank valve, and when he goes OOA (again) he'll likely toss your reg and you can go back down to 20' and do your safety stop or deco or whatever.

interesting perspective. Have you ever done any of this or is it complete "make believe"?

 

[diver42]

The tech dive incident wasn't completely smooth, though. I was wearing a long hose "wrapped" per my Basic Cave training, and a snorkel on my mask. Giving the diver my primary dislodged my mask slightly, and my mask flooded. No issue, really, except I needed to clear my mask to establish eye contact. And the water (Gilboa) was a bit cold.



rx7diver

Just wondering: Did this convince your to ditch the snorkel?

 

[johndiver999]

LOL some of these macho scenarios are humorous. One guy seems to think he has eyes in the back of his head, and his teeth are stronger than a panicked diver's hands when he yanks the hose from behind their head? That is the plan? Beyond ridiculous in my opinion.

A better attitude might be that somebody - anybody might yank the reg from my mouth at at any time, even an unintentional arm sweep from a buddy can instantly yank the reg out. Once the reg leaves my mouth, I am going to notice "right away" and I have prepared for this by being able to instinctively and instantly secure my own alternate air supply.. then deal with the impending CF.

Alternatively, these macho men must be so insecure that they are bitting through their mouth pieces every other dive - hell sometimes my regulator actually falls out if I am being relaxed and maybe a little distracted - not a big deal for 3-8 seconds.

Also, the whole idea of keeping the panicked diver away from you when they begin the air share is silly. What is quite likely to happen in that scenario is the panicked diver, grabs the reg and holds onto it with their hands and bolts for the surface, cranking on the hose and quite possibly ripping it off the first stage. Is that possibility even worth the danger?

If he yanks the second stage hose off, you air supply will be gone in a very short time. Far better in my opinion, is to grab the diver hold them close, try to calm them and manage a safe ascent. Way easier to control if you have a handle on them versus if they are above and behind you and bolting for the surface. You are out of control in that situation. If you try hard to slow the ascent, you risk putting even more strain on the hose and you can't work their BC and you can't even see them because they are above and behind you.

 

[Wibble]

Every dive you switch regulators. Very natural, very easy. Should any incident happen, you’ll automatically scoop up the necklaced reg and breathe.

Practice makes perfect. Simples.

 

[rx7diver]

Just wondering: Did this convince your to ditch the snorkel?

@diver42,

My greatest takeaway from both incidents pertains to just how suddenly these things can happen!

The rec diving incident was during an open water checkout training dive. I was TA-ing, closely watching a buddy pair do a gear exchange in ~25 ffw. You have to understand that to be allowed to advance to the open water checkout of this particular NAUI/YMCA course, the certies had already undergone, and passed, a great deal of "stress testing" (you know, old-school harassment training, etc.) in the pool. The open water checkout skills were really meerly for demonstrating what they had all done a million (it seems) times before--except in full wetsuits, in water that is a bit deeper and a bit colder and with a bit less visibility, etc.). Yet, during what should have been a perfunctory checkout skill, this buddy pair bolted, suddenly, for the surface. I caught one of the buddies ...

I didn't really know the diver in the tech diving incident--except to know that my tech instructor had trained him, too, in a couple of earlier courses. We were in drysuits and isolator-manifolded doubles. At this level, I never imagined that a simple free-flow would send one of us bolting, suddenly, for the surface--especially at the very start of a dive.

Both incidents really opened my eyes about what some people here on SB speculate about.

rx7diver

 

[johndiver999]

Yeah, I've had a few incidents myself. The theme is that things can turn into a CF quicker than you can imagine..

Sorta like going around the corner on a two lane road (while you are f-ing with the radio) and you look up and the oncoming car is 2 feet into your lane. (happened to me last week, in fact) - good thing I normally drive pretty slow.

Your plan needs to be simple, robust and somewhat instinctive - NOT some convoluted, artificial scenario based on wishful thinking and macho bluster about your super human abilities and omniscient spider-senses.

 

[boulderjohn]

That being said, why would I need a long hose set up for an occurrence that has happened once in 22 years?

You don't need a long hose for most recreational diving. The benefit to the setup is the primary donate/bungeed necklace combination.

I made the switch in recreational diving when I read about a drowning that occurred when a woman tried to get her buddy's alternate, but it had come out of its holder and was trapped behind him. A traditional alternate is designed to come out of its holder easily, and it does. That is only good during an OOA scenario. When it happens before that, and that happens often, it is not so good. In contrast, the bungeed alternate is meant to stay in place, and it does.

I currently have the bungeed alternate, and my primary is on a 40" (1 meter) hose with a swivel. It goes under my right arm, so it is very streamlined. If there were to be an emergency, I would donate that regulator and slip the alternate into my mouth.

 

[rx7diver]

... That being said, why would I need a long hose set up for an occurrence that has happened once in 22 years? ...

You don't need a long hose for most recreational diving. The benefit to the setup is the primary donate/bungeed necklace combination.

I made the switch in recreational diving when I read about a drowning that occurred when a woman tried to get her buddy's alternate, but it had come out of its holder and was trapped behind him. A traditional alternate is designed to come out of its holder easily, and it does. That is only good during an OOA scenario. When it happens before that, and that happens often, it is not so good. In contrast, the bungeed alternate is meant to stay in place, and it does.

I currently have the bungeed alternate, and my primary is on a 40" (1 meter) hose with a swivel. It goes under my right arm, so it is very streamlined. If there were to be an emergency, I would donate that regulator and slip the alternate into my mouth.

The scuba students at my local university are drilled, during their pool sessions, in old-school buddy-breathing--which makes me, personally, extremely happy. So, "primary donate" by default. (No long hose necessary.) They do their open water checkout using a Scubapro Stab Jacket with an AIR 2. So, again, "primary donate" by default. (No long hose necessary.)

Not so long ago I attached one of my Scubapro Balanced Adjustable 2nd stages to my double-hose regulator to use as a "safe-second" for anyone who does not know how to buddy-breathe off of a double-hose regulator. However, I taught my daughters the fundamental skill of buddy-breathing from a double-hose regulator--you know, to provide another option if things ever do go south.

I have several reservations about new divers using a long hose for basic recreational diving. One of them has to do with how the "wrapped" long hose and bungied back-up impede the immediate doffing and/or ditching of one's scuba--which is a fundamental skill of basic open water diving.

rx7diver

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You don't need a long hose for most recreational diving. The benefit to the setup is the primary donate/bungeed necklace combination.

I made the switch in recreational diving when I read about a drowning that occurred when a woman tried to get her buddy's alternate, but it had come out of its holder and was trapped behind him. A traditional alternate is designed to come out of its holder easily, and it does. That is only good during an OOA scenario. When it happens before that, and that happens often, it is not so good. In contrast, the bungeed alternate is meant to stay in place, and it does.

I currently have the bungeed alternate, and my primary is on a 40" (1 meter) hose with a swivel. It goes under my right arm, so it is very streamlined. If there were to be an emergency, I would donate that regulator and slip the alternate into my mouth.

Most of the time when I see a diver with an octo setup the alternate is loose waving around somewhere behind them or all beat up from swinging into things on the bottom. Hardly ever do I see one stowed properly in a keeper of some sort. And most of the time, the diver that has that loose octo is completely unaware of where it is or that it’s even loose!
As I remember in my basic OW PADI class they told us when an OOA buddy comes up to you and makes the hand slice motion across the neck you are supposed to locate, remove, hand them your octo by grabbing the hose at the seconds stage connection and giving it to them in front of their face ready to go.
A. So it’s in the proper position and not upside down, and B. To be in control of the situation. You then are supposed to get a good grip on their BC and guide them to the surface face to face. That is the PADI way.
That last thing you want is a diver searching around on your kit for an octo that you yourself don’t even know where it is.
And if they do grab your short standard primary out of your mouth good luck finding your own octo when you have a diver up in your face trying to breathe off a short 32” hose with an S curve in it at that. Good luck!
A primary donate on at least a 40” hose and a bungeed backup makes so much more sense.