Good point. I have used that function for planning, but not to see when the DA disappeared. My solution for the "annoying triangle" will be to ignore it, as long as I haven't blown an ascent or had a dive go into mandatory decompression stops. I'll cross-check the computer's plan mode with the dive tables to make sure my profile is safe.
Excessive MicroBubbles
- Thread starter SM Diver
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Good point. I have used that function for planning, but not to see when the DA disappeared. My solution for the "annoying triangle" will be to ignore it, as long as I haven't blown an ascent or had a dive go into mandatory decompression stops. I'll cross-check the computer's plan mode with the dive tables to make sure my profile is safe.
After many of my dives, when logging them, SSI's tables are "bent" by profiles that the Vyper allows with plenty of margin left (sometimes with 10 or more minutes of NDL bottom time left on the second dive when we start up, etc)
PADI's tables usually are more liberal than the Vyper permits, and sometimes significantly so.
I don't like going back in with the Diver Alert up on the console, and if I'm on my own boat I don't do it. If I'm on a cattle boat I try to either go in last (buying me a few more minutes, usually enough to clear it) or, if I KNOW I didn't violate either the ascent rate or an NDL limit, I have ignored it and gone in anyway.
I think the Vyper is a bit aggressive putting up that alert symbol, but I'd rather have it do that than NOT put it up when it should!
PADI's tables usually are more liberal than the Vyper permits, and sometimes significantly so.
I don't like going back in with the Diver Alert up on the console, and if I'm on my own boat I don't do it. If I'm on a cattle boat I try to either go in last (buying me a few more minutes, usually enough to clear it) or, if I KNOW I didn't violate either the ascent rate or an NDL limit, I have ignored it and gone in anyway.
I think the Vyper is a bit aggressive putting up that alert symbol, but I'd rather have it do that than NOT put it up when it should!
Genesis, when should it? That's the whole point. No one seems to know. We're talking microbubbles here, based on a lot of theory. If I decided to not dive on the alert, I'd be taking 90 minute SIs after a five minute bounce dive to twenty feet. Suunto has now said, "You may dive." My point is then, why have the alert? You say you're happy it will come on when it should? How are you even going to be able to distinguish that it's not another BS alarm? Suunto's manual? Website? Hahahahahaha!
are a known microbubble trouble-maker.
The alert is not BS if you're doing that, particularly if you do it after you come up from something deeper!
My only real complaint is that it will post the diver alert for VERY transient (and IMHO bogus) ascent speed violations like the one I got today rising up 6' or so at 83' to give a shark a clear path to swim away - not a quick motion either, since it was done entirely with breath control. I suspect that a couple of the others I've gotten have happened when I unclipped the console from my BC and brought it up towards my face as I was starting my ascent - a violation of no more than a second's duration, and NOT a true one, since my BODY wasn't moving that fast (the COMPUTER was, but not my BODY)
It is also obvious that the Vyper doesn't differentiate between total partial pressure change, but instead works on strict distance travelled in the upward direction over a sample period, and that its resolution is probably in feet (rather than sub-foot resolution.) This would explain a lot of things, because you could conceivably get a 3 or 4' change simply by unclipping the console and bringing it towards your face to read it if you caught it JUST wrong (right at the boundary between 83 and 82', for example)
It also explains how you can get nailed with these undeservedly on safety stops and ascents from them under the same circumstances.
I KNOW those are bogus though, since if I get one I go through the profile in the review and look for anything that I might have missed. The SLOW will show up, but you have to look sharp, because it comes and disappears in that single sample....
If I do something like bounce-dive, then those alerts are NOT bogus - and I would not ignore them. You can choose to, but I won't.
The alert is not BS if you're doing that, particularly if you do it after you come up from something deeper!
My only real complaint is that it will post the diver alert for VERY transient (and IMHO bogus) ascent speed violations like the one I got today rising up 6' or so at 83' to give a shark a clear path to swim away - not a quick motion either, since it was done entirely with breath control. I suspect that a couple of the others I've gotten have happened when I unclipped the console from my BC and brought it up towards my face as I was starting my ascent - a violation of no more than a second's duration, and NOT a true one, since my BODY wasn't moving that fast (the COMPUTER was, but not my BODY)
It is also obvious that the Vyper doesn't differentiate between total partial pressure change, but instead works on strict distance travelled in the upward direction over a sample period, and that its resolution is probably in feet (rather than sub-foot resolution.) This would explain a lot of things, because you could conceivably get a 3 or 4' change simply by unclipping the console and bringing it towards your face to read it if you caught it JUST wrong (right at the boundary between 83 and 82', for example)
It also explains how you can get nailed with these undeservedly on safety stops and ascents from them under the same circumstances.
I KNOW those are bogus though, since if I get one I go through the profile in the review and look for anything that I might have missed. The SLOW will show up, but you have to look sharp, because it comes and disappears in that single sample....
If I do something like bounce-dive, then those alerts are NOT bogus - and I would not ignore them. You can choose to, but I won't.
Going down to 20ft for ten minutes isn't truly a "bounce dive" which is typically seen when someone goes down deep and quickly comes back up due to low air or minimal no-deco time. I was using the term bounce for emphasis, but clearly stated 20 feet for ten minutes.
I edited my last reply because I don't want to get into the rhetoric from the other board. My alarm goes off when my initial dive of the day is at 20ft for 10 minutes. I do want to say that you come off as a know-it-all. You strike me as pretty smart guy, having read your posts here and abroad for several months, but no one who has been diving for eight weeks has the mastry that you profess.
and you haven't ascended too rapidly (or gotten an "unwarranted" SLOW - I've managed to do that on shallow profiles) then I agree that there is a problem in the programming in that its tripping on something that's not right.
I haven't managed to reproduce that one (I have most of the others that people have reported, and just got a NEW one today, as I noted here earlier, that made absolutely no sense to me), but I still would rather have the DA symbol up than not up if its questionable.
I have gotten an unwarranted SLOW on a shallow dive (max 40 fsw, most of it in about 25', and looking at the logbook the thing tripped when I went from prone to upright to start my ascent) before... and that gave me the dreaded "!" as well.
(I rarely do profiles under 70' around here; there's only one wreck in less than 60', and while its cool to go look around, it gets old.... most of our profiles are in the 80' range for stuff I can do on a whim during the week... that's probably why I haven't seen this particular thing come up yet...)
It will be interesting to see what Suunto (and others) do with their computers in the next iteration. If the guidance that was posted here is any indication, we might see deep stops explicitly supported and recommended and perhaps some of the "!"s will go away as the model gets more finely tuned....
I haven't managed to reproduce that one (I have most of the others that people have reported, and just got a NEW one today, as I noted here earlier, that made absolutely no sense to me), but I still would rather have the DA symbol up than not up if its questionable.
I have gotten an unwarranted SLOW on a shallow dive (max 40 fsw, most of it in about 25', and looking at the logbook the thing tripped when I went from prone to upright to start my ascent) before... and that gave me the dreaded "!" as well.
(I rarely do profiles under 70' around here; there's only one wreck in less than 60', and while its cool to go look around, it gets old.... most of our profiles are in the 80' range for stuff I can do on a whim during the week... that's probably why I haven't seen this particular thing come up yet...)
It will be interesting to see what Suunto (and others) do with their computers in the next iteration. If the guidance that was posted here is any indication, we might see deep stops explicitly supported and recommended and perhaps some of the "!"s will go away as the model gets more finely tuned....
BRW
Contributor
Lively discussion -- expect the ascent violation flags in
Suunto RGBM computers to modulate. Shallow "shock"
will go away -- Suunto knows and will most likely fix.
Thanks for all your comments.
On deep stops, both haldane folded and full up RGBM
computers will require them WHENEVER real deco is
required. Full up RGBM computers will generate deep
stops consistently over the whole deco profile. On
folded RGBM computers, something akin to halving will
be used (as back fitted or folded across the full up
RGBM requirements on 1000s of dive profiles).
Good nite.
BW
Suunto RGBM computers to modulate. Shallow "shock"
will go away -- Suunto knows and will most likely fix.
Thanks for all your comments.
On deep stops, both haldane folded and full up RGBM
computers will require them WHENEVER real deco is
required. Full up RGBM computers will generate deep
stops consistently over the whole deco profile. On
folded RGBM computers, something akin to halving will
be used (as back fitted or folded across the full up
RGBM requirements on 1000s of dive profiles).
Good nite.
BW
Suunto advertises theirs as "RGBM", but what KIND of RGBM?
Sounds like there is a "simple" implementation, then one that is (perhaps a lot) more complex.....
Is this something that will be reasonably accessible in terms of figuring out what is in a given computer before one buys it?
Rodale's has done this "freedom .vs. risk" comparison for quite some time, and its useful. But that doesn't speak to the actual model and complexity of the modeling going on in the computer's "brain" - and if there is a salient difference, it would be nice to know!
BTW, any info on the VR3 and the model(s) it uses? I've heard some people rave about it, the ergonomics (particularly the full dot-matrix screen) look nice, and supposedly it can be flash-updated (a first for dive computers, I think - I've not seen that on any others)
Its hideously expensive though....
Sounds like there is a "simple" implementation, then one that is (perhaps a lot) more complex.....
Is this something that will be reasonably accessible in terms of figuring out what is in a given computer before one buys it?
Rodale's has done this "freedom .vs. risk" comparison for quite some time, and its useful. But that doesn't speak to the actual model and complexity of the modeling going on in the computer's "brain" - and if there is a salient difference, it would be nice to know!
BTW, any info on the VR3 and the model(s) it uses? I've heard some people rave about it, the ergonomics (particularly the full dot-matrix screen) look nice, and supposedly it can be flash-updated (a first for dive computers, I think - I've not seen that on any others)
Its hideously expensive though....
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