Fail! Weekend Certify-

[otterdive]

Sorry for not having read every post in this thread, and I'm not well read on SSi's Standards and Protocols, but it seems to me that the instructor violated some very important standards relating to OW students and supervision. I'm a PADI instructor. It's very clear in PADI's S and P, that an instructor can NEVER leave an OW student unattended... on the surface, or underwater. SSI instructors care to chime in on that? Is there an SSI method for reporting that?

 

[GI0Ria]

No, I didn't realize that, and it's unusual. The first 'dive' is usually in just your BC so you can do a weight check, which is followed by either 4 or 5 scuba dives (I forget what my OW course had) over two days. The dives tend to be short for the reason Lynne (TSandM) stated; new divers usually Hoover air. So there's usually more than ample time to get tanks filled at the end of the day, if not during a lunch break.



No argument from me.



Certainly. BTW, just for research purposes (this feeds into a continuing discussion elsewhere on the board regarding the value of previous swimming ability to dive training, especially regarding comfort in the water), if you don't mind would you tell me how good a swimmer you are? Did you have problems with the swim test? Do you dog paddle, or can you swim the basic strokes (free/breast/side)? If you're not comfortable discussing it, no biggie.

Thanks,

Guy

I was in a college swim class twice a week in fall, and was swimming on my own a few times a week at the gym. I swim fairly well actually.
I will not exert myself if I know I need to preserve my energy for safety. But otherwise sure I can swim. I can do the back stroke, breast stroke etc... not competitively but passable I imagine.

Also I am for the most part at the gym every single day, I do either 3 miles on the treadmill walk/running or do 40 mins - a hour and a half of stair stepping along w/ weight lifting on some days.
I do yoga twice a week as well, on the days i do yoga I exercise twice. So I'm not sure fitness was an issue.

There may been strength issues. I am not so strong-

but I am active, healthy.


The 6 dives were all counted dives.. The very first dive in the ocean was a check off dive. skills - mask clearing and reg recovery... last two of the day were 'fun' supposedly :/ then the other three the next day,

 

[Guy Alcala]

I was in a college swim class twice a week in fall, and was swimming on my own a few times a week at the gym. I swim fairly well actually.
I will not exert myself if I know I need to preserve my energy for safety. But otherwise sure I can swim. I can do the back stroke, breast stroke etc... not competitively but passable I imagine.

Also I am for the most part at the gym every single day, I do either 3 miles on the treadmill walk/running or do 40 mins - a hour and a half of stair stepping along w/ weight lifting on some days.
I do yoga twice a week as well, on the days i do yoga I exercise twice. So I'm not sure fitness was an issue.

There may been strength issues. I am not so strong-

but I am active, healthy.

Thanks for the info. I was more concerned with how comfortable you were in the water, which is less a fitness issue (although that's important) than it is an experience issue.

The 6 dives were all counted dives.. The very first dive in the ocean was a check off dive. skills - mask clearing and reg recovery... last two of the day were 'fun' supposedly :/ then the other three the next day,

That seems to be a very strange sequence. AFAIR, we did skills dives the first day, a guided fun dive as the first dive on the second day, then had to do our last dive on our own. I'll have to check my original log book to confirm my memory, and get back to you.

Guy

 

[D_B]

First of all, I believe you when you say you were left alone ... and I think that by itself is enough reason for you to be seeking another shop, even more so with all the other anxiety causing issues you had

Note: our dive shop hauls all the gear needed for OW class to the dive site ... tanks, weights, regs, BC's, wetsuits, ... you bring your mask, gloves, fins

 

[rstofer]

Most folks are more familiar with the 4 OW dive requirement of PADI. So, students bring 2 tanks and get them refilled before Sunday. It's not unusual for a class to start at 8 AM and be finished by noon or so. Plenty of time to get them filled.

Three tanks for 6 dives sounds just right except that the tanks will still need to be refilled. It certainly seems like they weren't very clear on who pays for refills. But in the scheme of diving, $20 is nothing.

We had an example the other day (actually, last summer) where a class went out and one of the students, a great big guy, had an Al 50 and everybody else had Al 80s. The dive didn't last very long!

From a scheduling standpoint, I would always prefer to see the 'work' dives done first. There's time enough for 'fun' dives late when the student is more comfortable. But I'm not an instructor so there may be some reason for the sequencing. In the PADI system, there can be no more than 3 OW dives per day so it can be scheduled as 3:1, 2:2 or 1:3.

My grandson got the 1:3 sequence and it sucked! By the 3rd dive on Sunday he was REALLY cold. A miserable plan, all in all.

Richard

 

[GI0Ria]

Thanks for the info. I was more concerned with how comfortable you were in the water, which is less a fitness issue (although that's important) than it is an experience issue.

Guy

My comfort level in water? Let me give you some insight. From the time I can remember I was in the water. When I was young my family vacationed every summer at Lake Havasu (sp)? My uncle had a speed boat I remember tubing on it. After moving to NorCal I remember white water rafting in Auburn Ravine (American River) by myself in a single man raft. I was in Junior High. as recent as the last 10 yrs I been rafting down that strip of River. Google that, it is now off limits to raft in the area, to many deaths.
I have been in the water all my life, love most things about it, I also love fishing!

Does that give you a good idea my comfort level?

 

[GI0Ria]

Most folks are more familiar with the 4 OW dive requirement of PADI. So, students bring 2 tanks and get them refilled before Sunday. It's not unusual for a class to start at 8 AM and be finished by noon or so. Plenty of time to get them filled.

Three tanks for 6 dives sounds just right except that the tanks will still need to be refilled. It certainly seems like they weren't very clear on who pays for refills. But in the scheme of diving, $20 is nothing.

We had an example the other day (actually, last summer) where a class went out and one of the students, a great big guy, had an Al 50 and everybody else had Al 80s. The dive didn't last very long!

From a scheduling standpoint, I would always prefer to see the 'work' dives done first. There's time enough for 'fun' dives late when the student is more comfortable. But I'm not an instructor so there may be some reason for the sequencing. In the PADI system, there can be no more than 3 OW dives per day so it can be scheduled as 3:1, 2:2 or 1:3.

My grandson got the 1:3 sequence and it sucked! By the 3rd dive on Sunday he was REALLY cold. A miserable plan, all in all.

Richard

I like the idea better of getting in the water and just becoming familiar with how it feels to be in the waves with the gear.. and just moving around on top and below getting a semi- comfort level going, before attempting to do skills..

I would of liked it much better to NOT do skills first dive, it's to much 'stuff' to do.. it gets overwhelming when it has been a ruff entry- your trying to get ur gears all straight, and they want you to pull your mask off. Why would that be good in any scenerio?

 

[TSandM]

I'm sorry, GIOria, somewhere I got the idea that you were in Sacramento, so I assumed the shop was, too. Nonetheless, my point was really that there should be some information available to the shop to decide whether it is reasonable to take a class down to do OW dives. If the shop is close to Monterey, they might not consider that someone from further away was facing major logistical issues, and they might be a bit more liberal about "giving it a try".

I think this kind of thing comes up in a lot of places. Even if you're doing your cert in Hawaii, you're going to deal with surf (SoCal also). In Puget Sound, we don't have that problem, but we CAN have classes operating in truly atrocious visibility. I got certified in less than 10 feet of viz -- it was stressful, and that kind of condition makes it very difficult for instructors and dive staff to keep tabs on everybody. The shop has to balance the problems with the conditions against the logistic nightmare of canceling training days that people put on their calendars. I can testify from recent experience that, once you go off the established schedule, chaos ensues very quickly, as finding other days when all the class members can make it can be impossible.

I think a lot of the issues that have been brought up here are judgment calls, or customer service issues. BUT the problem of having uncertified students in the water with no staff supervision is not a judgment call. That's unacceptable, and in my opinion, unsafe. If a friend of mine went to take a class and that happened, I'd be in the instructor's face about it.

 

[GI0Ria]

First of all, I believe you when you say you were left alone ... and I think that by itself is enough reason for you to be seeking another shop, even more so with all the other anxiety causing issues you had

Note: our dive shop hauls all the gear needed for OW class to the dive site ... tanks, weights, regs, BC's, wetsuits, ... you bring your mask, gloves, fins

Thank you, it's nice to be believed.

I would see NO gain to make a false post.
AS much as I have stated I am almost positive they have been identified by someone who has put the pieces together that lives out here and dives in Monterey. Again I haven't outed them by name, and not so sure that is the best course after all is said and done and I'm with another shop. My intentions were to help new divers and still are.
Thanks posters

 

[D_B]

Not sure myself abut outing the shop by name
.. I would think that given the information in your posts that someone who has yet to sign up for classes would now have a better idea of what to ask, and to look out for

I would also recommend anyone looking to take an OW class (or any classes for that matter) look at Walter's excellent post describing what questions to ask ... http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ng/287780-how-find-excellent-scuba-class.html

and while the thread "What constitutes professionalism?" has many good posts, I think TSandM's post is the definitive one ...

Being a professional means holding yourself to a significant set of standards.

Being professional means having a mastery of your subject material. It means being on time and organized, and having thought through what you are going to do before you do it. It means maintaining a pleasant and disciplined demeanor even when you are frustrated or irritated, unless changing that demeanor is what you deem best to motivate or inspire the student. It means having the self-confidence to admit when you don't know something, and making the effort to find the answer for the student if it can be found. It means disciplining yourself to demonstrate the behaviors you want the students to learn (buddy checks, anybody?) and that also includes communicating to the students that your OWN education is never-ending. It means taking responsibility for anything that goes wrong, even if it wasn't through your own actions, because the class is ostensibly under your control. It means soliciting feedback from your students and then seriously considering that feedback and making appropriate changes as a result of it. It means making the effort to improve yourself in any area where you don't feel you are the best role model.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with how much you charge, or even if you charge.