Finally made it to Mexico ...

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,

Did he give the option of just using a stage bottle to add to the conservatism? I think 1500psi to end the dive with is OK, given that it was a new team, new cave, new country that has different line systems than where everyone was trained, and some team members were still new (ish) cave divers.

I think as a guide I would be ultra conservative (likely so much that I'd be a terrible guide). When someone has xxx cave dives after full cave, are those Ginnie/Peacock/JB dives, or have they branched out? If you don't know that, someone can be beautiful in the water, but still panic if they have their first silt out, air loss, entanglement, etc.

We wanted to use stages to the Blue Abyss, and our guide tag-teamed with another guide to talk us out of it ... claiming that we didn't need them to get there. We made it to the last restriction and turned the dive. The divers who used them got there no problem.

I'm OK with a lot of his calls, but calling a turn at 2200 when you're starting at 2900 is a bit too conservative to my concern ... particularly in caves with no flow. By the end of the week he'd had 10 dives with me already, and should have known what kind of diver I was.

I'm generally a pretty conservative diver myself, and don't really have a problem turning early if I understand why and think it's a valid reason. On the final dive, his "I just like to be conservative" reasoning didn't sit well with me.

Next time out I'm less likely to use a guide ... particularly if Eric is my dive buddy again.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

Bob -- on the dive when you turned at 2200 were you diving as a team of two or team of three? Also, was the 2200 PSI turn discussed/agreed at the beginning of the dive?

I remember a discussion with Ben M. who told me he NEVER goes to thirds because it is too risky, especially in a low flow cave like in Mexico. In discussing this with him, it made a lot of sense. Thirds in a team of two is really pushing ones safety margin, again especially in low flow caves. It takes just a couple of "which ways" to eat up all your reserve and "which ways" can be common, especially if in a real stressed situation.

 

[Cave Chick]

I was never made aware that you felt your dives were being cut short so I apologize for that, if I had known I would have gladly made the guide aware of that. However, I do know that atleast the first two days your dives were averaging over 100 minutes long because you were in the water longer then us some days! I know that the guides also like to be conservative and Daniel even commented that he will commonly turn with about 300 from turn pressure because they are guiding people that they have just met and people that they don't know how will handle a situation. Daniel commented that whether it is his fault or not if someone runs out of air on his time he will be blamed. He was taught to be conservative when guiding. I still think most people on this trip had their longest cave dives yet, all dives lasting well over 85 minutes! I always recommend diving with a guide on your first trip to Mexico. However if you come back next year and don't want a guide that would be an option, as well. It was a pleasure having you on the trip Bob! I am really glad you came!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Mostly I discussed it with my guide ... I preferred to try dealing with it myself. Not all dives were cut short. I know both Eric and I were bugged about the Blue Abyss dive ... and the final dive bugged me the most (would've loved to see the China Garden and still see no reason why we didn't). As I said, I liked my guide ... we just didn't communicate as well as I'd have liked.

I'm glad I came too ... it was one of the best, most organized dive trips I've ever been on. Compared to all the positives, the shortened dives were a minor thing ... and I learned a few things that will make the next trip even better. I'm looking forward to it already ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cave Chick]

Glad to hear it! I think a lot of people psych themselves out or hurry to get to Blue Abyss and that is the problem. I know you said the guide was going very quickly. I had no doubt in my mind that you two were gonna make it. We did it twice last year and made it both times no stage. I was shocked and saddened to hear you didn't make it and felt very bad . Next year we'll take stages and you can always follow me there if you'd like!

 

[TSandM]

I've done the Blue Abyss on thirds -- but when we got there, we had virtually no time to look around. If you have ANY trouble figuring out which jump is which (as the arrows get changed fairly often) you won't make it on thirds. As Bob knows, I have a pretty low SAC rate, and it's about as far as I would ever like to plan to get. I take a stage and drop it before the King Pong restriction (which admittedly means you haven't used much of the stage) and that's enough cushion to get me there comfortably, as well as being additional gas on exit, if anything goes wrong. We often go to the BA and then turn around, pick up the stages, and go up the Dark Side of the Moon or IHOP lines to continue the dive.

I really don't like planning a "destination" dive to get to a place that I can barely get on thirds. I'm with Ben Martinez, who told me once that, if he hits thirds on a dive, he didn't plan the dive well enough . . .

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That was what Eric and I had planned to do, Lynne ... and what others in the group did do. Our guide was pretty adamant that we wouldn't need stages.

Next time ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kotik]

From my point of view, yes--not making it to the Blue Abyss was a little disappointing. But, by the time we turned it had become obvious we wouldn't get there. I turned the dive as I recall, I think I was just a hair shy of my thirds but we had come to a good place to turn around and I'd already made my peace with the reality.

In my opinion it just wasn't meant to be that time, and probably Bob and I can shoulder some of the blame ourselves-- if we'd really been on our toes with thinking ahead, we would have made a very clear plan with our guide the day before, and let him know that stages were indeed part of the plan, in no uncertain terms. After that... starting the dive was a little confused during the surface swim, the pace was a little rushed for the rest of the swim in... some undue pressure had crept into the business that I think we might could have nipped in the bud via some more authoritative preparation on our part, a day in advance. If we'd had that in hand, we wouldn't have been shaken off what we originally intended.

But, for me I'm okay with not getting there this time. It gives me an excuse to go back and try again

. In this case, 20/20 hindsight has been filed away in the log book and is the starting point for the next dive plan there.

Aside from the isolated experience of not achieving a goal that day, I loved the diving, and I should say for the record that that trip toward the BA has very possibly made Pet Cemetary my favorite cave.

Overall, I am content with the decision to go with a guide this trip. I think for the first trip there it's not a bad idea at all. I thought our guide was good, and I'd recommend him to someone I care about that I wanted to have a safe, enjoyable trip.

I agree that next time around I'd opt to do the actual dives unguided, but having the guides there for the trip was definitely a big plus-- the help with all the tanks, gear, food, and diver wrangling was an extreme benefit. Having someone there with us that's a native and speaks the language, another HUGE benefit. Speaking for myself, just finding and identifying the mainline in some of the places would have eaten my lunch.

And I too will say-- great job Marissa. Not only have you got your own stuff together, somehow you managed to keep the stuff of 11 others together too. I think you must have been working some black magic behind the scenes somewhere...

 

[TSandM]

I really think, if you go to MX the first time and you AREN'T traveling with folks who are really familiar with the place, it is WELL worth the money to hire a guide. The logistics of finding sites and obtaining access can be really daunting to someone who isn't familiar with the area and doesn't speak Spanish. In addition, you don't waste time (and gas) finding mainlines, or finding the appropriate jumps. The first time I went to the BA, I went with someone who knew where it was. The next TWO times I tried to get there, I never made it -- once because all the arrows had changed (red ones ) and I couldn't find the right jump off the Diaz line, and the second time because I wasn't confident enough of where we were to keep going, although we were, in retrospect, in the right place.

If you get to go frequently, the challenges of navigation can be part of the fun, and make for some great stories. If you only get to go very occasionally, spending a dive looking for the mainline, or ending up on a line entirely different from what you were looking for, might not seem as entertaining. Guides earn their keep.

 

[ucfdiver]

That was what Eric and I had planned to do, Lynne ... and what others in the group did do. Our guide was pretty adamant that we wouldn't need stages.

Next time ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't understand how the guide could make this argument.

You know how fast you swim.
You know what your SAC is.
You know the depths (avg) from the map.
You know what level of conservatism you want.

Math is math. I sometimes wonder if the fact that goal oriented dives have gotten such a bad name that people are scared to say "this is my goal, this is what I need to accomplish it".