Force Fins "The ultimate fins" or are they?

[Bob Evans]

Sambolino44, right on brother. I have never bad mouth any of the fins with in market. (Well maybe once with one model that is no longer around) I dove for over 20 years in the Jet Fin with may be over 4,000 dives. I am not a cave diver and will never make it to Mount Everest. I sure respect those cave divers and had the Honor to meet the fine folks at Dive Rite and Wes Skiles during the NOGI awards this year. Thanks for bring in the positive vibes, Bob

 

[Baracuda Smile]

As a FF owner, user I think that a great deal of the nay sayers just haven't tried them, or have tried a model that doesn't work well for their technique or dive environment.

The SD-1 Military that I have fit exactly what I was looking for, a fin that would fit the wide variety of foot wear I use depending on location and conditions. Yes, they are an %$#kicker on surface swims, but I only paid for 1 set of fins that for 95% of my diving are comfortable.
They also don't increase the discomfort I have from hardware in my feet and legs, unlike every other fin I've owned.

Hey Dive Buddy I wondered when you would find this string. For those of you that read all of the posts...Like I stated origianally and Kamuki commented on and now Mongodives mentioned we are diving to one extreme out here in Okinawa, Japan which stresses fin design. This is under the conditions of heavy surf, strong surge, swift rip currents, and wave action over a 1000 meters when you include entry dive and exit. When carrying heavy loads I.G. cameras, several flash lights, coke bottles from 1945, steel tanks, and lift bags. When it is nessary to make distance before running low on air, meaning that you need a low sac rate and you must fin hard. Clearly the fin of choice is the split fin. I truely beleive fins all have thier own niche e.g. cave, wreck. In my observasations I do not see the value (cost/benifit) of force fins.

 

[Susanne]

Baracuda Smile,

Maybe you missed the "Smart Questions Make Smart Divers" post in this thread. Can't figure out how to link to it directly.

The conditions about which you are speaking is where Force Fins, the Original, Pro and Tan Delta, and new SD1 perform the best. Surf entries and exits can be completed with fins on, shoulder into the wave. Much safer than entering backwards without fins, as is taught when you wear other fins, split or paddle.

 

[Baracuda Smile]

Baracuda Smile,

Maybe you missed the "Smart Questions Make Smart Divers" post in this thread. Can't figure out how to link to it directly.

The conditions about which you are speaking is where Force Fins, the Original, Pro and Tan Delta, and new SD1 perform the best. Surf entries and exits can be completed with fins on, shoulder into the wave. Much safer than entering backwards without fins, as is taught when you wear other fins, split or paddle.

Susanne,

Unfortunately in Okinawa, out reefs are very delicate and crawling with urchins, so walking on live hard corals with fins is a no go. I understand that if you had a nice sand beach entry then puting on your fins on land and walking out would be ok. We may have to walk several hundred meters/yards with water waist to chest deep, because the surf breaks out farther on the edge of the reef. The reef gets often gets shallow again near the break. This is where felt sole booties to prevent urchin puncturing the bootie and spring straps are a must. It is very quick to slip the foot into the foot pocket and transition from walking and wading to swiming or the opposite on exit. To help in the transition I have my fins straped to my BCD, this way I can maintain my balance as I am climbing over rocks and holes and trying not to step on sea slugs. It only takes seconds to put on my fins from on clicking them off my BCD, to getting under the pounding surf. It is dangerous to be side ways to the wave when putting on your fins as the wave will smash you against the sharp coral. The reverse/exit is also true. Often we surf in on air holding onto the bottom while the surg passes over us. We will surf in to about 1 foot of water, and it is perimount in between sets to quickly take off your fins and stand up. If you don't the surf will roll you and pound your head into the coral. Once you are standing up the breaks around your knees don't knock you over but you may have a 100 meters until you can climb a hill to your car again climbing over lava rocks and hard corals. I can not see any one doing this in any fin. The felt bottom booties are not only a must for the urchins, coral, and lava but also for the super slick algee that grows on the dead coral.

Susanne, I know most divers don't dive to the extreme like we do here in Okinawa, Japan. Maybe your R&D can design some fins for us and I will test them for you.

PS I read Smart Questions Make Smart Divers again and it sounds very scientific, but I don't see any real world results.

For instance I conducted a Discover Scuba class today and was leading around a 250lb+ man who had a 5mm wet suit and about 25lbs of weight. He was completely dead weight. I easily took him on a tour, manuvering him for 30 minutes, while I finned continously for 2 dives each. I did not get any cramps, and I did not get fatigued. We moved together about the same speed as new divers do, stopping only to look at the sites. For manuverability I give my splits a 3 out of 5 (can not do helicopter turns) but for speed and power I give my splits a 5 out of 5.

 

[meesier42]

you really should try Forcefins for a while before you judge them, if your concern is that you
1) need to quickly don/doff fins in the water
2) require spring style straps
3) need to continuously push loads

you have really just described all of the things that ForceFins are really good at because
1) the foot pocket is extremely easy to entry, much, much easier than Apollo, and the design of the fin does not require a strap at all (even in heavy surf) making it very secure.
2) ForceFin doesn't have Steel Spring straps, they use a "bungie" that is more comfortable and equally easy to use, while not having the added weight of a spring
3) the kick rate that ForceFins use in a flutter kick is somewhat lower than splits while providing equal or greater performance
4) For shore entry, the ForceFin is a more compact fin, therefore it will have less interference for your entry

I have a friend in Okinawa right now that has a pair of Pros, I can contact him to see if you can try them. It takes a couple of dives to get used to them, they don't "feel" like they are working, but as I showed another newbie just Thursday, you go quite well. The person in question, is working on dynamic apnea, he could not finish a 25yard length with his fins, I handed my Pros, after only 3 tries, he started making the 25 yard pool, he told me, they just don't feel like they go at all, but he was surprised how much they helped him.

I have been testing fins for almost 10 years now, I have tested over 50 pairs, and have used over 20 divers for my data collection. While I share in your opinion that Splits, specifically the Apollo Bio-XT and the Atomic Splits (although the Atomic have other issues) are some of the best endurance fins available, the ForceFin Pro for nearly every diver that I have seen will outperform them. For example, when tested in an endurance test, 500 meter swim at a constant time of 8 minutes for each fin tested (hard work load), the ForceFin Pro had SAC of 1.4 the Bios and Atomics both were at 1.7, that's a 20% improvement on air consumption. An interesting note that was common from the 4 people that helped me with this effort was that as the divers progressed and tired, the comment was that with ForceFins it appeared to get easier as the event went on.

 

[mikemill]

Susanne,

Unfortunately in Okinawa, out reefs are very delicate and crawling with urchins, so walking on live hard corals with fins is a no go. I understand that if you had a nice sand beach entry then puting on your fins on land and walking out would be ok. We may have to walk several hundred meters/yards with water waist to chest deep, because the surf breaks out farther on the edge of the reef. The reef gets often gets shallow again near the break. This is where felt sole booties to prevent urchin puncturing the bootie and spring straps are a must. It is very quick to slip the foot into the foot pocket and transition from walking and wading to swiming or the opposite on exit. To help in the transition I have my fins straped to my BCD, this way I can maintain my balance as I am climbing over rocks and holes and trying not to step on sea slugs. It only takes seconds to put on my fins from on clicking them off my BCD, to getting under the pounding surf. It is dangerous to be side ways to the wave when putting on your fins as the wave will smash you against the sharp coral. The reverse/exit is also true. Often we surf in on air holding onto the bottom while the surg passes over us. We will surf in to about 1 foot of water, and it is perimount in between sets to quickly take off your fins and stand up. If you don't the surf will roll you and pound your head into the coral. Once you are standing up the breaks around your knees don't knock you over but you may have a 100 meters until you can climb a hill to your car again climbing over lava rocks and hard corals. I can not see any one doing this in any fin. The felt bottom booties are not only a must for the urchins, coral, and lava but also for the super slick algee that grows on the dead coral.

Susanne, I know most divers don't dive to the extreme like we do here in Okinawa, Japan. Maybe your R&D can design some fins for us and I will test them for you.

PS I read Smart Questions Make Smart Divers again and it sounds very scientific, but I don't see any real world results.

For instance I conducted a Discover Scuba class today and was leading around a 250lb+ man who had a 5mm wet suit and about 25lbs of weight. He was completely dead weight. I easily took him on a tour, manuvering him for 30 minutes, while I finned continously for 2 dives each. I did not get any cramps, and I did not get fatigued. We moved together about the same speed as new divers do, stopping only to look at the sites. For manuverability I give my splits a 3 out of 5 (can not do helicopter turns) but for speed and power I give my splits a 5 out of 5.

I was certified and dove in Okinawa and I used Force Fins while I was there. Hell that was the recommended fin.

 

[Susanne]

Baracuda Smile - a shorter fin, with all the thrust and bungie heel strap, will do about what you are writing better than the longer fins you are using. I can't think of better empirical data of our products' performance in the real world than being in business for over 25 years, selling only fins made in the USA, in a tough and sometimes cut throat competitive market.

Mikemill, Thank you.

The MWR there was our number 1 account for years. Force Fins were put through some pretty hefty testing before making it so. Then management changed at the same time as some industry dirty pool knocked us out of there.

As I think Bob pm'd you, the dirty pool knocked us out of predominantly store distribution and into distribution by word-of-mouth. With the growth of the Internet and frequency with which divers come to places like where we are now - scubaboard - that became a more powerful method and our growth continued.

I think you both just pulled this thread back from where it started.

 

[Bob Evans]

Barracuda Smile I wanted to share with you the beautiful award I received from the MWR program in Okinawa for our outstanding service.

 

[marchand]

And Marchand, you have not even tried them on and you are trashing them? Come on. At least put them on your feet so you are talking from experience, and not from a picture or a website, eh?

My goal was not to trash force fins, sorry if I came across that way.

The title of the thread is "Force Fins, the ultimate fins; or are they." I was simply stating my opinion because I noticed that there really wasn't any discussion on what makes a fin the "best." I am a firm believer that there is no piece of equipment that is best for everyone, and that includes force fins. For the type of diving I do (cave diving) I need a fin that works best with frog kicks, and judging from how most of the force fins are designed they won't work very well at all with frog kicks except for the accelerating FF which happen to cost $400. Even though I have spent several thousand dollars on this sport, I personally can not justify spending $400 on a pair of fins and I don't know anyone that can. So all I'm saying is that, for the type of diving I do, force fins are far from the ultimate fin for reasons I already listed.

The set of fins that I'm using now are Dive Rite fins, and I really like them because they work really well with a frog kick, they came with spring straps (spring straps are important because they don't break, not because they are easy to get on or are comfortable), and they fit my dry boots well. Are they the "ultimate" fin? They might be for the type of diving I do, but I doubt it. They are, however, the best fins that I have tried.

 

[Baracuda Smile]

Barracuda Smile I wanted to share with you the beautiful award I received from the MWR program in Okinawa for our outstanding service.

Who is your distributor in South East Asia, Japan, or for the military?

I Divemastered for a full 10 student class this weekend. One of the DM canidates wore force fins. In any open water class we can have floaters, or sinkers. I being the only licensed and insured DM was responsible for managing the DM canidates and assisting the instructor over all. I had placed DM canidates on the left, right and to the rear of the students 2 person buddy columb. I was concerned that the DM canidate canidate who wore the force fins could not react quickly enough to a student that had problems. The instructor who led the columb did wide slow sweeping turns but if you are on the left or right you must swim hard to maintain control of your assigned area.

Of course as briefed we will never pull a floater down as that can cause injury but if a DM can quickly assist a student then that is a whole different matter. It is also important in order protect the reef, and keep the students from injuring themselves on sharp objects on the bottom to protect against the sinkers. After seeing the force fins in action again yesterday I am very skeptical. The force fin might be a great fair weather fin that conserves energy but when you have the sudden need-for-speed they don't seem to hold water next to the split fins. I would not advise this fin for any person who has not graduated advanced open water.