Frequency of advanced divers practicing CESAs ? [Poll]

[The Chairman]

Do you also figure that such risks are there for someone doing a CESA twice a month?

I would never knowingly put myself in a situation that raises the incidents of AGE and DCS without good reason. The biggest take away for most doing this seems to be a source of pride as to how 'intense' they are about this skill. Meh. There are better things to brag about. Me? In over 49 years of diving, I've yet to be bent or experience any pressure related injury while diving, my SAC is pretty good for an fat old white guy, I'm really proud of my trim & bouyancy, I've never run out of air or had to do a CESA since I started using an SPG and then there's the unique way I teach. Oh... I own ScubaBoard. So, I've got plenty of superlatives to feel that I can look down on all those Scuba plebes. [/tongue in cheek] Scuba has to be the most competitive non-competitive sport on this planet.

I was asking before if the instructor always did a CESA when accompanying the student doing his/hers?

It's not required, but we often do. An instructor's role during a training CESA is as important as it is detailed:

• Make sure we see bubbles
  • That demonstrates that the airway is open
  • Harder to do with a fast ascent
• Arrest ascent if needed
  • We don't see bubbles
  • The student takes a breath
  • The student seems to have a problem
• Make sure the student orally inflates their BC after the ascent
  • Make sure they don't drown!
• Assess the student after the ascent
  • Signs of barotrauma
  • Signs of AGE
  • Signs of DCS

Please note the last item on the list. Wow.

do you support eliminating it as a skill to be taught?

I see absolutely no reason to do it vertically. I see limited value in teaching students to do it horizontally. It's my opinion that the buddy skill of regularly checking each other's air is hardly ever taught and it's far more important. One of my first questions to each diver after the dive is how much air do they think their buddy has? You're not much of a buddy if you aren't close. Diving with a buddy is far more than just doing a cursory buddy check at the beginning of the dive.

Any other ideas to keep it in as a skill while not setting a poor example?

No. In addition to setting a bad example, many instructors end up abandoning their other students during this exercise.

I can’t believe that instructors are still required to teach CESA in a manner endangering their own health.

The RSTC is the guilty entity in perpetuating this. Should we have a class action suit? I would support it. The biggest reason for continuing this farce is that we've always done it this way. It's unmitigated BS. I would love to see the insurance companies band together like they did with the number of divers allowed on a discover Scuba. They can and should force this change.

 

[tursiops]

If you practice a CESA only once during your initial training, and never practice it again, the chances that you get it right in case of an emergency are not that good.
OTOH, if you practice it correctly on a regular basis, your chances of performing it efficiently and effectively when the need arises are probably increased.
It is a procedural type of knowledge, and can only be learned correctly by repeating the procedure again and again until it is fully mastered, ideally under the watchful eye of a highly trained and qualified instructor.

What you say is true, well-known, and unsurprising. It should not have taken this thread to make this point. It would be much better to ask how many folks practice alternate air source donation and receiving, or LPI hose disconnecting, or something much more likely than a CESA.

 

[boulderjohn]

You don't really need to practice ascending to practice a "CESA". You really just need to practice exhaling slowly, so you develop a solid, intuitive idea of how long you can make one breath last.

If you know that, you'll know how much time you'll have to swim the surface at a controlled pace, should the need ever arise.

No, it does not tell you how long it will last, because when you are ascending, the gas in your lungs is expanding. At 100 feet, you have 4 times as much gas in your lungs as you would when you do when practicing on the surface.

I met two people who had to do emergency CESA's, one from 75 feet and one from 100 feet. Both said that one they started exhaling, the air started coming out faster than they intended, and it was still coming out that fast when they reached the surface.

 

[Kharon]

If I aa relative of mine died after a panicked OOG ascent, and I found out you told them they had no safe option without an alternate air source and were going to die under those circumstances, you can you would lose that lawsuit big time.

Really? ==> IG - sorry to see you go.

It was suggested I should use my pony on a 30' dive. Haven't heard of many doing that.

I do all dives with my pony. Even 10-15 feet. I think it's stupid to dive without it. I got hung up rolling milfoil mats once. The task leader tried to convince me that I didn't need my pony in 15 feet. Eh, tangled in a mat, depth is irelevant. I'll carry my pony every time, thank you very much.

It's my opinion that the buddy skill of regularly checking each other's air is hardly ever taught and it's far more important.

I must have had a good instructor then. This was seriously stressed. In fact one guy I was buddied with bugged me about every 15 seconds for my air pressure. He was a real PITA. LOL

The one thing I didn't like about it was the system for communicating the pressure. It was convoluted and hard (for me) to remember. If I'm diving with a buddy, they should be close enough to show them my SPG or AI computer occasionally rather than trying to remember if 1-5 is up or down (or sideways) and is this a multiple of 10, 100, or 1000.

I still would rather my buddy was reliable and would keep track of their own air. I really don't want to babysit.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have never had to do an actual CESA in nearly 1000 dives over the last 14 years plus. I have to do them or an emergency buoyant ascent for OW classes. I hate them in open water and consider the practice dangerous. I've had a reverse block on a dive and it wasn't pretty.
In the pool horizontally from 9 feet to 4 feet it's ok. I only take one student at a time for it and it is useful to show them the amount of pressure change in 5 feet of vertical rise over 45 feet or so.
SEI actually removed the vertical CESA in open water because of the risk to students and instructors.
A panicked diver is going to bolt. All the CESA practice in the world will go out the window.
A properly trained diver will manage their gas and use buddy procedures that negate the need for a CESA or EBA.
A solo diver will have a redundant supply that negates the need to do this.
What needs to happen is the next time a diver or instructor is injured on a CESA, is that they need to sue the RSTC and the agency that requires it for putting them in unnecessary danger.
It might also get them to tighten up the requirements for certs so that poorly trained people are not in the water.
YEAH RIGHT! THE LAST WILL NEVER HAPPEN! The RSTC members who put profit over safety will never allow that to fly.
They've already resisted that with ratios that set instructors up to fail. The bottom line will dictate policy.
A lawsuit from an injured diver or instructor as a result of a CESA or EBA would be a good thing to get those antiquated skills removed.

 

[The Chairman]

In fact one guy I was buddied with bugged me about every 15 seconds for my air pressure.

You should learn how to estimate your buddy's gas in between checks based on your and their gas consumption. This even works with dissimilar tanks. Say you both start with 3000 psi. When the first person uses 500 (@2500PSI), you check the other's air. Who used the most? If your buddy used 600 while you used 500, then we know that they're going to use a 100 psi more for every 500 you use. Using my previous example of a dive to 100ft, instead of the turn being at 2000 psi, it's going to be at 2200 psi because that's when we think they're going to hit 2000. Your thumb pressure should be at 1400 psi for 100 ft and not 1000. Again, that's because you're anticipating that when you're at 1400, your buddy is probably right at 1000. THIS IS ONLY A GUESSTIMATE and nothing beats actually checking your buddy's gas which you should do when you think either of you is approaching a limit. Diving is all about limits.

If, at 500, you find that your buddy has used significantly less than you, then all you need to do is follow your limits. Sure, check with your buddy when you approach a limit, and adjust your plan accordingly. I might check my buddy's air 3 or 4 times during a dive and less if we are SOBs (Same Ocean Buddies aka solo).

CAUTION: This is based on unstressed diving. If you or your buddy has an incident that causes either of you to get excited, gas estimates will be way, way off. That could be a sting from a venomous creature, catching lobzilla or seeing your first mermaid. Good or bad, an exciting situation causes divers to use a lot more gas so be sure to re-evaluate your estimates and adjust accordingly.

 

[lowviz]

And... practicing an oral inflate of your BCD at the surface on a regular basis is a good idea, and has usefulness beyond the last step in the CESA process.

I just noticed this part of your post on a re-read of this thread. I couldn't agree more!

And when you have inflated, hook your thumbs on your weight belt. Those two simple actions become a continuous reinforcement of the existence of two of the most important 'last steps' in a crisis.

 

[The Chairman]

Just to make a point. Drama in diving is usually self inflicted. Now that I think of it, I've had a CESA from a Divemaster accidentally shutting off my air. Tank breathed fine on the bench. Two breaths in the water and there was no air. Sigh. The first time it happened I reached back to turn it back on and couldn't find the valve. I zipped to the surface and by the time I got there, I remembered that this was probably my left hand valved tank. Got someone just off the boat to turn it back on. Grrrr. The second time, I was doing a live drop and was almost to the wreck when I figured out my air was off. Not wanting to miss the wreck, I reached behind and turned it on at depth. So caca occurs, but how many people dive with left handed tanks? Now, I just keep me between them and my tank valve and if I suspect they've touched it, I'll recheck breathing before I splash.

Back to the drama, you'll notice that 5% of the divers have 95% of the drama. Those who don't, can't or won't get a clue will always have issues.

 

[scubadada]

One of the last things I do before every dive is to breathe off my regulator and watch my SPG. It's been a very long time since I jumped in with my air off

 

[Kharon]

You should learn how to estimate your buddy's gas in between checks based on your and their gas consumption. This even works with dissimilar tanks. Say you both start with 3000 psi. When the first person uses 500 (@2500PSI), you check the other's air. Who used the most? If your buddy used 600 while you used 500, then we know that they're going to use a 100 psi more for every 500 you use. Using my previous example of a dive to 100ft, instead of the turn being at 2000 psi, it's going to be at 2200 psi because that's when we think they're going to hit 2000. Your thumb pressure should be at 1400 psi for 100 ft and not 1000. Again, that's because you're anticipating that when you're at 1400, your buddy is probably right at 1000. THIS IS ONLY A GUESSTIMATE and nothing beats actually checking your buddy's gas which you should do when you think either of you is approaching a limit. Diving is all about limits.

Thanks for the methodology. Good to know. Also, re. diving is all about limits - I try hard to limit my diving to solo. That way, only my limits are an issue. LOL

... I reached behind and turned it on at depth. So caca occurs, but how many people dive with left handed tanks? Now, I just keep me between them and my tank valve and if I suspect they've touched it, I'll recheck breathing before I splash.

Exactly why I don't want any "help" nor anyone other than me touching my gear. Since I'm an old, stiff, inflexible guy I got hold of a valve extender. Now I can turn my air on and off by a knob hanging by my right shoulder. I love my "slob knob".