Frog kick mechanics

[TSandM]

I originally learned my frog kick in Fundies. It was a pretty simple kick, where the angle between the knee and the calf didn't change much at all. I practiced that kick, and it got me through Fundies, Rec Triox, Cave 1, and AG's Helitrox class (although Andrew said something about needing to work on my kick).

Then, when I was whining to Fred Devos about my tendency to kick the ceiling, he showed me a slightly different frog kick, with an extension component where you extend the knees as the kick finishes. I found that gave me a ton of power, and kept my fins down a bit more, so I worked very hard to master that technique.

Then I showed up for Cave 2, and David took one look at my kick and told me it was unacceptable. He did not want to see ANY extension component in the kick at all. For power, he wanted to see a cave-style flutter kick (like a mod flutter, only bigger). This was a kick I hadn't learned to begin with, and hadn't used anything like in almost four years.

So, what were you taught for frog kick mechanics? Do you use an extension component? Do you use it sometimes or all the time? And how much of a role does a strong flutter kick play in your repertoire?

 

[karstdvr]

I originally learned my frog kick in Fundies. It was a pretty simple kick, where the angle between the knee and the calf didn't change much at all. I practiced that kick, and it got me through Fundies, Rec Triox, Cave 1, and AG's Helitrox class (although Andrew said something about needing to work on my kick).

Then, when I was whining to Fred Devos about my tendency to kick the ceiling, he showed me a slightly different frog kick, with an extension component where you extend the knees as the kick finishes. I found that gave me a ton of power, and kept my fins down a bit more, so I worked very hard to master that technique.

Then I showed up for Cave 2, and David took one look at my kick and told me it was unacceptable. He did not want to see ANY extension component in the kick at all. For power, he wanted to see a cave-style flutter kick (like a mod flutter, only bigger). This was a kick I hadn't learned to begin with, and hadn't used anything like in almost four years.

So, what were you taught for frog kick mechanics? Do you use an extension component? Do you use it sometimes or all the time? And how much of a role does a strong flutter kick play in your repertoire?

The frog kick can have many styles. The typical power from a frog kick with the best mechanical advantage would include knee extension with hip adduction and internal rotation-this takes advantage of the prime movers. In high flow caves power is generated in this kick style with terminal knee extension,then a refractory period occurs,which provides for fairly efficient movement. Often the frog kick is modified in low flow or small caves to maintain some knee flexion since a power kick isn't needed,or if low and flat then knee extension to reduce the profile,but with less thrust.
Personally I feel people are way too dependent on the frog kick and use this exclusively,when modified flutter and shuffle kick are a far better choice for some cave passages ie narrow silty,nose down trim, etc. I find during the dive my kick will vary based on the cave I see up ahead,and adjustments will be made. Obviously you are at the mercy of your instructors/guides who have a rigid DIR tendency,but if the person is not silting,and damaging the cave,then I don't cry foul.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Do what it takes to get through the class, consider what was taught by the instructor and what, if anything, he was trying to achieve, then in the real world do what works for you in a given situation.

Personally I think there is a great deal of benefit in getting instruction from multiple instructors as it exposes you to more diversity and more possibilities to adapt to any given situation. But the fact is that many instructors feel they are "right" and others are "wrong" on a number of topics and obviously the workd has to be a lot less absolute and/or someone has to be mistaken. So I tend to take it all with a healthy grain of salt and evaluate what I am taught on it's own merits rather than just accepting it because it comes from an authority figure.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I agree with Kelly. I know a full cave diver who is unable to do a frog kick due to a 4 story fall, he still passed his full cave and has been diving caves over 10 years. Use what works.

 

[rjack321]

Do you use an extension component?

Yes, most of the time my regular frog has an extension component. My "ankle frog" (aka modified frog) does not.

Do you use it sometimes or all the time?

Most of the time. To increase power I increase the extension slightly and up the frequency of kicks. The glide phase decreases as well.

And how much of a role does a strong flutter kick play in your repertoire?

Essentially nil.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

No one kick is ideal for every environment.

I use the modified frog the majority of the time, but I certainly don't use it in passage that doesn't allow my knees to be bent

I use a modified flutter head down at times.



I use a full out flutter on beach dives

 

[Blackwood]

Funny you should mention this now, Lynne.

On my last dive (Thursday night... stupid swell), we got stuck on the surface trying to rectify an LP inflator issue for a couple of minutes, and the current pushed us quite north of our intended drop point (where there is a permanent line running to an area with some life). I hate surface swims, so I suggested we drop down and swim south at a depth I knew would intersect the line.

It took 12 minutes to get there, and along the way I was bored so I was paying attention to my kick versus that of my buddies, one of whom recently passed GUE/F while the is other currently enrolled in GUE/F/t and recently took UTD Essentials (and in looking at the bottom of my screen, I see that one of her instructors is reading this thread).

Not surprisingly, they tend to use the same stiff kick as Lynne, whereas I tend to extend my legs when the environment allows it.

A fair estimate when I really push it is that I cover 50%-100% more ground per kick cycle than they do.

I've also recently been playing with what I call a Steve Bogaerts frog kick. In watching his videos, I noticed that he tends to pull his feet in towards his butt before the power stroke. I think it gives a bit more springiness to the kick as well as adding a little extra length. It's actually quite comfortable since it stretches my thigh muscles.

And how much of a role does a strong flutter kick play in your repertoire?

A lot... when I'm swimming.

The only time I've flutter kicked while diving in the last 4-5 years was in Cozumel when I was going against the current towards the only Eagle Ray I saw the entire time.

 

[PfcAJ]

I feel these kicks are not discrete "this kick that kick", but exist on a continuum. If I need a big ol' frog kick, thats what happens. If I need a lil' one, thats what happens, if I need a middle sized on, I make it happen. Teaching "this kick that kick" is a teaching mode only, not really something overly practical.

There are times when I get that full extension. Here's me at Twin Cave, just cruisin along and enjoying the scenery YouTube - Cave diving at Twin Caves

No real extension, just a small, relaxed, comfortable kick. High flow stuff usually gets some permutation of a flutter kick, and small passage gets either a lil baby frog or a lil baby flutter.

What I'm not a fan of is when folks do a frog kick that end with the fintips pointed down. It directs the water vortex towards the bottom and often those same divers do the seesaw thing with their body.

 

[LiteHedded]

i bet the cameraman is awesome

 

[edparris]

So, what were you taught for frog kick mechanics? Do you use an extension component? Do you use it sometimes or all the time? And how much of a role does a strong flutter kick play in your repertoire?

Bob taught me the frog kick as a continuum that PFcAJ describes. David gave me the same flutter kick instructions during my class. The choice of kick was all about the environment. We used the flutter for bursts of thrust in tight environments where I might have bumped something if I had extended my legs or in high flow areas where I couldn't benefit from the long glide the extended frog offers. He didn't seem to mind in other situations. I guess it makes sense that Fred had a different answer for a different environment.

Just another tool in your diving bag of tricks; you really can't ever have enough.