Gear dependancy and additional training

[Slonda828]

I don't get this all of a sudden "horizontal" crap. I mean like, really now, I don't always want to be horizontal, maybe I want to be upside down, or standing on my head, or completely vertical if I like, maybe I want to be able to position myself as needed or desired regardless. I don't want some air bag device holding me rigidly horizontal, pancake like, in the water column. If I need to be horizontal big deal, get horizontal then, getting rid of a lot of the junk people haul around with them would help all around.

OK, ZKY, you can be the Rogue Minimalist, I am the Zen-er Minimalsit.

N, swim down, swim around and then swim back up

This resonates with me. Horizontal is for swimming at a constant depth, or cavers, or hovering at the bottom without mucking it up. If I'm diving a doublehose (typically I am), I want to be slightly heads up so it breathes easier. If I'm working with new divers, I want to be slightly heads up, so I can get head counts, grab bolters, and pay attention. If I'm descending, I'm head down. I think a bunch of people on here just got wrapped around the axle at some point about the horizontal thing because it is a bragging rights thing and a way of making you not look like a noob. There really isn't a need to do it all the time. Try working with 8 new divers when you can only look straight ahead because you are at "a perfect hover", and realize that you could actually be making eye contact, which is what they expect you to do anyway.

Just in case the usual suspects show up to vilify me, I do not advocate teaching skills, practicing skills, or demonstrating skills on your knees.

 

[Teamcasa]

(I read some but not all of the multiple pages of posts for the record)

What exactly is your point or motivation for this post? I'm not clear.

Are you saying that a newer diver shouldn't take Fundies or the new Essentials coarse since they require certain gear purchases?

If so, I can at least understand that point of view.

Are you saying that anyone who is using a BP/W is using cave/wreck gear? In that case I don't think you have much of an argument.

I don't think anyone is saying that gear makes the diver. Some people want to dive with others where all their gear is standardized (not me) but I can't see an argument there if that's what they want to do.

I don't think many people are making most of the arguments that you made. I think some people are taking classes like Fundies mainly because rec agencies are doing such a poor job. You can also learn these skills from simply diving and improving your skills through experience and continuing to educate yourself (my case).

I'm just not clear what concern you had that you were trying to address with this thread. Can you clarify?

(PS)I do agree with you that people who say their buoyancy was terrible and so they purchased a BP/W and now everything is great are delusional.

The point is, gear does not give you skills. In addition, sometimes gear can make some skills eaiser to learn but can also mask a lack of skill in some areas.

I would encourage new divers to take any course they feel will improve thier skills. There are many quality instructors or mentors we all can learn something from.

I would also say that you do not need any one specific gear configuration to be a proficient diver. Do say otherwise would prove you have a gear dependancy.

OTOH, if you have a specific diving situation like a cave or wreck, specfic gear may indeed be required.

 

[John_B]

This resonates with me. Horizontal is for swimming at a constant depth, or cavers, or hovering at the bottom without mucking it up. If I'm diving a doublehose (typically I am), I want to be slightly heads up so it breathes easier. If I'm working with new divers, I want to be slightly heads up, so I can get head counts, grab bolters, and pay attention. If I'm descending, I'm head down. I think a bunch of people on here just got wrapped around the axle at some point about the horizontal thing because it is a bragging rights thing and a way of making you not look like a noob. There really isn't a need to do it all the time. Try working with 8 new divers when you can only look straight ahead because you are at "a perfect hover", and realize that you could actually be making eye contact, which is what they expect you to do anyway.

Just in case the usual suspects show up to vilify me, I do not advocate teaching skills, practicing skills, or demonstrating skills on your knees.

Here we go again with the logical fallacies. Nobody said there weren't good or even great reasons to "breaking trim". The point being made over and over is that new divers are not taught what its like to be both horizontal and neutral. Probably not even once. How would they know that it was important to keep their fins up and off the reef (or the muck) if their instructor doesn't demonstrate it to them.

OTOH, the original premise of this thread was that the OP said anyone should be able to do any dive with any gear. Are you saying the double hose should be the exception in regards to "gear dependency"?

The point is, gear does not give you skills. In addition, sometimes gear can make some skills eaiser to learn but can also mask a lack of skill in some areas.

I would encourage new divers to take any course they feel will improve thier skills. There are many quality instructors or mentors we all can learn something from.

I would also say that you do not need any one specific gear configuration to be a proficient diver. Do say otherwise would prove you have a gear dependancy.

OTOH, if you have a specific diving situation like a cave or wreck, specfic gear may indeed be required.

Oh, that's rich! If you think Essentials or Fundies is going to mask *any* lack of skill at *any* level, that shows how little you understand about the learning that takes place in that training. Seriously.

To nobody in particular: What I think is happening on this thread is that some people with 500+ dives are looking for excuses to dive at 45 degrees like they always have. And apparently a few instructors would like to continue to teach their students to dive that way, if not intentionally at least by the example they set in front of their students.

John_B (calling a spade a spade)

 

[Peter Guy]

Nemrod -- would you be so kind as to clarify a bit what you mean by "overweighting?" While I'll freely admit that too many divers probably have more "extra" weight on them than they need (that is, they would be negative with an empty tank and no air in their BC/Drysuit). However, even you must agree that by putting air into the BC/Wing/Bladder, even an "overweighted" diver can be "neutrally buoyant" in the water column -- can't you? If the diver is neutrally buoyant, then any attitude should be possible -- but, as Walter pointed out, UNLESS they are in a nearly horizontal attitude, when they kick (especially if they do a "full leg flutter kick") they will propel themselves in the direction the head is pointed -- since "forward" is towards the head.

IF the "typical recreational diver" is not close to horizontal, they will need to figure out some other way to go parallel to a relatively flat bottom -- which is the 45 degree angle Walter discussed -- using the gravitational vector (down) to counter the kicking up vector leaving the forward vector the only observable motion. It isn't that they are "overweighted" but that they aren't neutrally buoyant (although they MAY HAVE more weight than they "need").

Does not the question thus become -- why can't they get parallel to the surface so that most of their kicking force is in the direction they want it to be?

 

[grazie42]

"Good gear" encourages "proper" execution and "bad gear" discourages it. I think the effect is most obvious at "the ends of the spectrum", that is really good or bad divers are most helped by "good gear". For those "in the middle", pretty much anything goes...

 

[gcbryan]

The point is, gear does not give you skills. In addition, sometimes gear can make some skills eaiser to learn but can also mask a lack of skill in some areas.

I would encourage new divers to take any course they feel will improve thier skills. There are many quality instructors or mentors we all can learn something from.

I would also say that you do not need any one specific gear configuration to be a proficient diver. Do say otherwise would prove you have a gear dependancy.

OTOH, if you have a specific diving situation like a cave or wreck, specfic gear may indeed be required.

Thanks. I agree.

 

[gcbryan]

I don't think trim is overrated but I can't identify I guess with how much of a problem it seems to be for some until they get a BP/W.

I personally use a BP/W and steel tank and am in trim with all additional weight around my waist on a weight belt.

I used to have an aluminum tank and a jacket style BC with even more weight on a weight belt around my waist. I was in trim then as well.

I was out of trim with the jacket BC using Jets so I didn't use them. Now with a BP/W I can use Jets. Other than that I've never had a problem with trim regarding of my setup.

I doubt if I'm really that unusual. I think trim can easily be obtained regardless of the gear. Out of control consoles or other gear can easily be controlled as well.

I really don't get some of these discussions.

 

[D_B]

I don't think I follow you?

Trim is a component but the major component is over weighting, once that is dealt with the trim issue often goes away or at least is much easier to access and deal with.

If you are neutral at depth with little air in the BC and correct weighting and you suspend yourself and then your feet drop rise etc then you may have a trim issue. But still, this is the minor problem, the major problem and first to be dealt with is being over weighted which almost all scuba divers today are.

N

Overweighting has little to do with trim, or being neutral .. weight placement takes care of the first ... amount of air for lift in wing to balance weight takes care of the second

A thought process ... your in a feet down position and hovering , neutral , let a bit of air out, you sink right? now fin a bit, you stop sinking .. how is this being overweighted?

Edit: I see that's it's been covered already

Trim ... one of the things that was so cool in my AOW class was to see my instructor float around in whatever position he desired, headstand, or head up, on his side, whatever .. Our trim was very important to him, it even was in OW .. some instructors care and teach it
.. I do think getting a steel tank helped me and one of the things that I find cool now is just tipping over into a headstand to look under the ledge I just swam over ..


John B .. I didn't see the link between Dave's comment and Fundies gear?

 

[b1gcountry]

XYZ-
Neither the Can light, drysuit, or steel tanks, are required for a hogarthian setup. There is a recommendation for using a drysuit with steel doubles, but with a single steel, you will likely not be over-weighted with a wetsuit. You could instead dive a single tank with a wetsuit, no can light, and either a shorter long hose, or tuck the 7' hose into your waist strap.

On another note, I find it interesting the locations of the people on different sides of the main argument between Peter, and Walter. The Florida folks don't think poor trim or weight placement matter. The cold, and silty group understands what happens when you kick downward, or have lots of weight in the wrong place.

Walter's obviously correct, BTW. He has like 14 times as many posts as Peter, so he must be right

Tom

 

[TSandM]

Actually, I think part of the reason people disagree is that their experience is different in different areas.

Wearing a 3 mil suit, or a shorty, and very little weight, it's going to be pretty easy to balance myself out in any position I want to be in, and most of my buoyancy control is going to be with my breath.

When you get to Puget Sound and are wearing 14 mils of neoprene and 35 pounds of weight, if you put all that weight in the wrong place, IT will pretty much determine your position in the water, if you are not kicking. Physics really is inexorable.

There is definitely a skill component to putting yourself in, and maintaining, whatever position in the water you desire. Uncle Pug can go straight head down AND swim himself around that way. I can't. But there is also a component of just plain static physics to the system composed of a diver and his gear, and if that system is severely unbalanced, some force will have to be applied to keep it in any position other than the one where it wants to come to rest, and that means the diver will HAVE to move fins or hands constantly. If you don't mind doing that, that's fine. I like to be able to stop and sit absolutely still to look at something, and to do that, my gear has to be at least somewhat balanced. If that's gear dependency, I guess I'm guilty.