General Vortex Incident Discussion

[cavediver256]

Well Bob, you and I have discussed this at length on another forum, and you have some valid points about Ben's mentality and decision making ability....but after seeing the latest pic of Ben in his sidemount gear, and hearing the information about the condition of stage bottles with busted valves, and missing regulators....A few questions that I would love to see answered:

1) IF BEN HAD COMPLETED AN OW SM COURSE, HOW IN THE WORLD COULD HIS GEAR HAVE BEEN SO F**KED UP ON HIS LAST DIVE????
2) DID HE COMPLETE THE OW SM COURSE CONFIGURED LIKE HE WAS IN THE PHOTO????

 

[PfcAJ]

We could just ask his instructor!

Oh wait...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We have a fundamental disagreement not so much on scuba, but on if people's judgement can be fixed. I think it can be fixed, you think it can't. I think a high level of training (actual training, not this faux training we talk about a lot) can greatly influence a person's decision making.

But I'm sure when I'm older I'll see it your way, at least thats what you usually say when we argue about stuff on here.

When you're older you won't see it my way ... but you will see it very differently than you do now. I guarantee it.

But let's run with your perspective for a moment ... what you say about raising training standards is all very nice ... it's been discussed ad nauseum here on ScubaBoard for years. How do you propose to do it? How, then would you propose to get everyone to buy into it?

Here's your chance ... you can succeed where everyone who's ever tried implementing training standards in the past has failed.

Tell us how you'd change the world ... please be specific.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaSteve]

Or unfortunately in Ben's case. Actually the IUCRR is full of cases....deep air, rebreather when it wasn't needed, visual jumps, solo diving, etc.

And nothing in there where diving SM caused the death...

 

[cavediver256]

We could just ask his instructor!

Oh wait...[/QUOTE

AJ I don't think his instructor will come forward and admit to anything......I have seen him post on every thread I have seen about this accident, but nothing about the OW SM course he taught Ben......

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well Bob, you and I have discussed this at length on another forum, and you have some valid points about Ben's mentality and decision making ability....but after seeing the latest pic of Ben in his sidemount gear, and hearing the information about the condition of stage bottles with busted valves, and missing regulators....A few questions that I would love to see answered:

1) IF BEN HAD COMPLETED AN OW SM COURSE, HOW IN THE WORLD COULD HIS GEAR HAVE BEEN SO F**KED UP ON HIS LAST DIVE????
2) DID HE COMPLETE THE OW SM COURSE CONFIGURED LIKE HE WAS IN THE PHOTO????

I'd be willing to bet his training never involved stage bottles at all.

And it wouldn't surprise me to find out that some of the issues shown in that picture are a direct violation of what he was trained to do.

Wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone ignore their training ... and everything I've read about this young man suggests to me someone with a serious case of "I'll do it my way" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hetland]

Take a field trip to Singapore. The standards for a driver's licence over there are dramatically different than they are for obtaining a license in the US. As a result, there are less fatal accidents both per capita and per 10,000 registered vehicles (which corrects for the difference in how many people own vehicles). (sources:FARS Encyclopedia and Singapore Traffic Police - Driving in Singapore).

Up the level of training, reduce the number of fatalities.

How many miles of road do they have in Singapore?
What percentage of registered vehicles are taxis?
If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the population is dependent upon buses and trains for their transportation, right?
What are the penalties for driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs? (I'm pretty sure they don't cane you for driving drunk in the United States)

You are applying the same faulty logic to side-mount as you are to traffic fatalities.

 

[ucfdiver]

But let's run with your perspective for a moment ... what you say about raising training standards is all very nice ... it's been discussed ad nauseum here on ScubaBoard for years. How do you propose to do it? How, then would you propose to get everyone to buy into it?

Limit instructors to the demand, or as many as you can manage.

Require the student to fill out a dive log for every dive, 1 paragraph. Depth, time, passage, etc. Write what happened, what THEY did wrong, how they will fix it. It would make a great record for the student as well. Would be good for records for the instructor for insurance, and the agency could see what's going on. Sure, you could lie, but very few students would be down to lie on a course they're paying for about short cutting skills.

For basic cave, video valve drills, s drills, lost line w/ blacked out mask, on line exits, etc. UW cameras can be had less then the cost of 1 students tuition, mail in a $0.50 cd that teh agencies can randomly review. Doesn't have to be professional quality, just show the student what he/she did wrong, and show the agency that drills were done.

 

[ScubaSteve]

AJ I don't think his instructor will come forward and admit to anything......I have seen him post on every thread I have seen about this accident, but nothing about the OW SM course he taught Ben......

Can you blame him? This guy has been sent to the gallows to be hanged by a couple people that are clearly unable to think at the moment.

 

[Hetland]

Well, the light rule in state parks seem to be doing very well. Sometimes we can't change opinions, but we can remove opportunity.

Just a matter of time before the light rule fails to prevent a death. Do you know that there are contraband firearms in prisons? They are stored and transported in the anus. If someone wants to break your wonderful light rule, they can, and are most likely doing it now. The light rule keeps honest people honest, that's all it does.

We have a fundamental disagreement not so much on scuba, but on if people's judgement can be fixed. I think it can be fixed, you think it can't. I think a high level of training (actual training, not this faux training we talk about a lot) can greatly influence a person's decision making.

The man in charge of the United States Military made critical remarks about the Commander-In-Chief in front of a reporter for Rolling Stone Magazine. I'm betting he had more training and experience than you, me, ucfdiver and Ben combined.... and multiplied by two.

You can teach skills, facts and methods, but you can't teach judgment or wisdom.

But I'm sure when I'm older I'll see it your way, at least thats what you usually say when we argue about stuff on here.

When you're older you won't see it my way ... but you will see it very differently than you do now. I guarantee it.

I'll back up that guarantee.