Gilboa

[IndyScott]

Mike is right.

The biggest concern for all of us is to be concerned on how not to let this happen again. We should be brain storming on ideas to prevent more accidents. I think Mike Williams is very informative on letting Divers know the dangers of the deep side and you don't go on the deep side without proper deep plan approval. What else's can be done?????

Should there be a rope put up about 5 to 10 feet above the ledge with sign posted Danger don't enter with out approve.

Like what is done in cave areas were some cavern diving is done.


Scott

 

[wb416]

ICUROK once bubbled...
Mike is right.

The biggest concern for all of us is to be concerned on how not to let this happen again. We should be brain storming on ideas to prevent more accidents. I think Mike Williams is very informative on letting Divers know the dangers of the deep side and you don't go on the deep side without proper deep plan approval. What else's can be done?????

Should there be a rope put up about 5 to 10 feet above the ledge with sign posted Danger don't enter with out approve.

Like what is done in cave areas were some cavern diving is done.


Scott

On any given weekend, there are people 'sneaking' over the wall so they can say they did a 100' dive. I would almost bet that for every person that files a 'deep dive' plan, that 5-10 don't.

How do you police something like that? "Underwater placards and ropes" is an interesting concept... not sure what the feasibility or implementation would be like though. Placards reading "Deep Dive Plan Required, etc"


hmmm.... perhaps a chain link fence that runs to the surface... with a notation that all deep dives must enter from the 'deep entry dock' only.

 

[MASS-Diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Ixsna on the knife. There are better ways I think.

I know that seems like an extreme action, but, if you are inverted and shooting up fast from (for example) 150', your fins have blown off (this is with attached boots), and, there no way you are going to excecute the flip move, and there's really not much to do except die, I've been taught that you draw your knife and slash at you legs/feet- if you cut through the air will vent fast and you might live, if not you will confound those analzying the accident with the missing knife and leg wounds. Same goes for a stuck infaltor button/freezeup- if you can't pull the hose off (which you should be able to do easily) open your neck up, if there's just too much air going in - time to draw your knife and make a "new" exhaust valve. A run-away ascent is really bad news, drastic (even bizarre) actions are justifiable if they stop or slow the ascent.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

One thing that we'll never get rid of regardless of the amount of training is lousy judgement on the part of the diver. We all have to be personally responsible for our own safety. If we insist on doing something we aren't prepared to do we just may die.

I have a young buddy that has maybe 20 logged dives. He went to a drysuit demo and was supposed to get a little instruction before he donned it. Well he showed up late so they just sort of talked him through it and he went off to give it a try. He said he wouldn't buy one as he had 3 out of control ascents. Imagine that?

My point here is that while the shop and the salesman had a responsibility to not just hand this gear out as they did, the diver also had responsibility for himself. He was down about 30 feet when this happened each time and didn't hold his breath but he was still pretty lucky wasn't he? When he told me what happened I gave him the typical butt chewing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

Right now, I am thinking violation of duty of care based on non-adherence to agency standards, but what do I know...I am not an instructor..

I'm an instructor and that's the way I see it. Like I said before. A pre-assesment is allways required. In the case of a dry suit (at least with PADI standards) a confined water session with a specific list of skills is a requirement before any open water diving. Confined water is defined in the PADI standards as pool like conditions with regard to depth, calmness and clearity.

In the case of a dry suit though it might be a grey area. In theory you don't have to do a class to dive a dry suit if you don't wan't to. The fact that a diver is already certified I think tends to reduce the legal risk of supervisors.

If a diver signs up for a dry suit class I am bound by the standards as to how I conduct it. OTOH, if I hand a dry suit to a certified diver and they run off and dive in it, what standards am I bound by? Now lets say I have him sign a release that says diving is dangerous and diving in dry suits is dangerous and anything that happens isn't my fault. Then it may just amount to me giving the diver the oportunity to do something stupid. My guess is that the dry suit companies have researched this.

I've tought a few dry suit classes. Based on my teaching experience and knowledge of the training standards I could never justify supervising these dives. Not without going through the confined water skills first. Some people can be pretty funny their first time in a dry suit. Well, it can be funny in a pool. In the wrong place it would be just plain bad news.

As far as prevention...I don't think there is any more that Gilboa management can do. The equipment manufacturers, agancies and instructors have a lot to think about though IMO.

Gilboa has some basic rules like limiting access to the deep side. Instructors are already bound by agency standards. Divers either need to be with an instructor or be certified. If the system worked there shouldn't be a problem. This has nothing to do with Gilboa. The problem is with a very broken dive industry, IMO. It's all about selling the equipment.

It's safe, it's fun, try it you'll like it. You don't need no stinking skill practice first. You don't need to read no stinking book. And if you try today and buy I'll give you a discount. Go on, what have you got to loose?

 

[Big-t-2538]

wb416 once bubbled...

On any given weekend, there are people 'sneaking' over the wall so they can say they did a 100' dive. I would almost bet that for every person that files a 'deep dive' plan, that 5-10 don't.

To be totally honest, I think it is closer to 10, if not more. I have seen plenty of "AOW" classes (none that I am associated with) go over to the deep side. I have also seen some people just take off over the wall while I was diving around the bus, truck, and tubes. I do have to admit...I ventured across the wall one time....but I never went deeper than 40' on that particular dive, and the viz was such that we could still see the bus as we were taking pictures of the paddlefish we were following.

I have posted that the only other time I dove the deep side was when we checked out the platform for the AOW class and decided that it wasn;t worth the risk to take the class over there. We also filled out a DDP before we went and had it approved by mike himself.

Anyway, as for prevention...it would be nearly impossible to prevent divers from going over there once teay are in the water b/c of the nature of the wall....it starts out at something like 20' and follows a sloped path all the way down to about 95. I have never gone to the "end of the road" (that's what the wall originally was...an access road for quarry equipment), but I have followed it to over 80' before and am guessing at the 95' mark. Mike has signs posted all over the place about deep diving, the consequences of what happens to the regs in 60 to 80 ft. of cold water, on your waiver you sign that you will not dive on the deep side without filing a profile with the office.....There really isn't much more he can do other than hire police with spearguns...hmmm come to think of it, there would probably be volunteers...

 

[O-ring]

It's all about selling the equipment.

It's safe, it's fun, try it you'll like it. You don't need no stinking skill practice first. You don't need to read no stinking book. And if you try today and buy I'll give you a discount. Go on, what have you got to loose?

Common Drysuit Myths

Drysuits keep you warm!
You will have an uncontrolled, feet first ascent to the surface!
Drysuits are cumbersome and difficult to don and remove!
Foam neoprene neck and wrist seals are much better!
Drysuits are too expensive!
Drysuits are for professionals and advanced divers only!
If the suit floods it will drag you to the bottom!
There is no such thing as a drysuit. The best you can hope for is "semi-dry"!
Drysuits cause a lot more drag and require a lot more weight!
Drysuits are only for extremely cold water!
Drysuit diving is too technical for the recreational diver!

Source = http://www.dui-online.com/newsite/tech.htm and http://www.dui-online.com/newsite/tech_myths.htm

Once again we see another dive related marketing ploy touting something is "for everyone". Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single piece of equipment that took me more time to become proficient with than my drysuit. Sure, it ain't rocket science, but there is a LOT more to diving dry than diving wet and a little healthy respect for the consequences of making a mistake would be prudent given recent events..

 

[MASS-Diver]

I had about 25 dives in my DS before I took the PADI course. I enjoyed the class very much. One thing I remeber is my instructors holding us down and pushing our inflator button and then us go inverted in about in a 12' pool, you had to keep doing it untill you control your ascent before hitting the surface. I think it's a standard PADI drill. After the course I noticed after an addition 20-30 dives before I felt 100% comfortable.

Maybe I'm a slow learned, but, I think DUI has some serious protocol issues.

Furthermore, I really not sure what even the best instructor could do if someone starts shooting up from 130'. Most of the runaways I've seen in training courses end with both the instrucotor and the student at the surface.

 

[Epinephelus]

Mike et al...
Your quest is honorable.
Press on.
"Just because the game is rigged, don't let that stop you... if you don't bet you can't win." (Heinlein)
In aviation accidents, the broken record is "Pilot continued VFR flight into IFR weather conditions" - which is another way of parroting the diving accident broken record... "Diver continued dive beyond his/her training and/or experience."
The bad news is that no matter how well you train someone, no matter how much you emphasize and attempt to enforce sound, safe diving practices, no matter how high you set the bar... there will always be the duty 10% who insist they are not bound to the laws of physics and physiology, and will find new and creative ways to demonstrate Darwin's hypothesis.
The good news is that you will save one every now and then, and that makes the effort worth it.
E.

 

[wb416]

O-ring once bubbled...


[snip]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single piece of equipment that took me more time to become proficient with than my drysuit.
[snip]

After my first DS dive, I hated it... it's a good thing I didn't know about ebay back then (that was probably pre-ebay).... and it was about 10 dives before I started to like the thing....

now with about 300 dives in that suit, it's like second skin.... but it didn't get that way by accident... practice, practice, practice....