Giving advice to newbies concerning guided dives

[TSandM]

Ah -- I think I see. You're saying that new divers should select dive ops that put a guide in the water, because otherwise they will have to hire a DM to dive with them, and that's a considerable additional expense.

I think it depends on the sites. A lot of the dives we did in the Red Sea were so dead-bang simple, from a navigational standpoint, that the only purpose for a guide would have been to point out critters. (And honestly, I think that function is often more valuable to more experienced divers, because a) new divers enjoy everything they see, because it's all new to them; and b) new divers often have a great deal of trouble holding still long enough to look at small, cryptic critters of the sort that guides find and divers in general don't.) At any rate, "reef on the left shoulder going out, reef on the right shoulder coming back," is the kind of simple dive that anyone should be able to do in warm, clear water without current.

Drift dives in Coz are more challenging, as people can get pulled away from the group, and the ascents are done in blue water. But one guide for six or eight people is not really much help with that kind of difficulty, unless that one guide happens to be close enough to the problem diver to intervene.

I'm a big believer in having a buddy or guide who knows the local diving, when you don't. But not to ensure the safe completion of the dive -- just to optimize my enjoyment of the site.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

In response to the original post, my first dive post certification, was with a equally first time out, brand new diver, at a site I'd never been to before. I had been taught how to navigate and plan, as well as how to execute the dive plan. This is what an open water certified diver should be able to do. It does not hurt to have an experienced diver with them, but it should not be necessary.

As an instructor, I don't certify them unless they actually can dive independently. Those who let themselves be guided are within their rights to do so, but it should not be needed. I'm against guided dives as the norm.

Was this site a quarry or a lake, because I'm only talking ocean, where waves, surges and currents may or may not be present, and visibility may fool you.

---------- Post Merged at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:58 PM ----------

Ah -- I think I see. You're saying that new divers should select dive ops that put a guide in the water, because otherwise they will have to hire a DM to dive with them, and that's a considerable additional expense.

I think it depends on the sites. A lot of the dives we did in the Red Sea were so dead-bang simple, from a navigational standpoint, that the only purpose for a guide would have been to point out critters. (And honestly, I think that function is often more valuable to more experienced divers, because a) new divers enjoy everything they see, because it's all new to them; and b) new divers often have a great deal of trouble holding still long enough to look at small, cryptic critters of the sort that guides find and divers in general don't.) At any rate, "reef on the left shoulder going out, reef on the right shoulder coming back," is the kind of simple dive that anyone should be able to do in warm, clear water without current.

Drift dives in Coz are more challenging, as people can get pulled away from the group, and the ascents are done in blue water. But one guide for six or eight people is not really much help with that kind of difficulty, unless that one guide happens to be close enough to the problem diver to intervene.

I'm a big believer in having a buddy or guide who knows the local diving, when you don't. But not to ensure the safe completion of the dive -- just to optimize my enjoyment of the site.

yes that's my reasoning, I by no means think a guide is responsible for my or anyone else's safety. It's funny you mention Coz, I've never been there, but I joined a dive club and one of the first things they told me was that since I was new don't do any drift dives, my response was too late I've already done several. but like you I would never tell anyone to do that to start off with. And I'm talking boats where guides or optional, you don't have to dive with them if you decide you can handle the sites.

---------- Post Merged at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:58 PM ----------

I did my both my OW (Nov 2000) and AOW (Mar 2001) in Jamaica. After those 10-15 dives or so ( log book long gone ) I started diving with just buddies and haven't dove with a DM since except when required by local law.

I got certified so I would know what I was doing. So that I could plan and execute my own dives. I quickly learned the importance of vetting a potential dive buddy and I also learned that the boat was just a taxi and the rest was up to me. I'm fine giving that advice to the next generation of divers.

Wouldn't part of the dive planning be trying to make sure that you get on the right taxi to put you out where you want to be and be there when you get back? I would never let someone else (cruise ship, hotel) book my taxi for me. Like you, having done my OW, AOW and first 30 dives in the clear ocean with great visibility, (when it wasn't so great, it was better than my first quarry), I always wondered why some divers that never been the ocean before were nervous. The boat rocking, and hitting waves didn't bother me, and getting on and off in waves and surges didn't bother me because those were the conditions I was trained in. After my first quarry dive then I understood a little better when you're used to the calmness poor vis and being able to just walk up some steps to get in and out it makes a difference. I have buddy that I go to quarry with to dive from time to time, and I've realized when even though he's the more experienced diver that i have plan and lead the dive, and i have know problem with it, it's helping me to be a better diver.

 

[t-mac]

To the OP, I agree that guided dives are a good thing for newly minted OW students and it probably is an important thing to note whether certain ops put someone in the water or not when we review them. It was a small surprise to me the first time I went on a trip when they didn't. My early dives out of training just happened to be in places that did put people in the water. Personally, I tend to enjoy self-guided diving more, but I don't think I had the confidence for it right out of OW.

Based on some of the responses to this post, I began wondering if I was poorly trained because I did feel I needed a guide right out of OW. I actually don't think so, but some of you will probably disagree. In retrospect, I think I was probably perfectly capable of diving on my own (in certain conditions), but I didn't have the confidence to do so until I had experienced several new environments, with an experienced diver along as a guide. Was I doing trust-me dives? Probably to a certain extent I was, at least to the extent that I was not navigating or even aware enough of my location to know the way back to the boat. And I would guess that if you asked any new OW diver about diving on their own, they would not be mainly concerned about buoyancy, or air management, or setting up their gear -- they would be concerned about getting lost. For that reason alone, I think it is good to have a guide and I don't think it means someone had poor training. Navigation takes practice and I know even now when I am responsible for it, it can still be stressful when I get temporarily "misplaced" (and God forbid if I have to surface to get my bearings!). New divers can be forgiven, without a presumption they were poorly trained, if they feel they need a guide so that they can practice everything else they just learned without stressing about getting back to the boat. I think minimizing stresses in the early dives is a particularly good thing.

 

[chrpai]

Wouldn't part of the dive planning be trying to make sure that you get on the right taxi to put you out where you want to be and be there when you get back?

I guess I just don't understand what you are asking me. I've always booked my own trips and I live my own vacation when I get there.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I guess I just don't understand what you are asking me. I've always booked my own trips and I live my own vacation when I get there.

wouldn't researching and booking your own dive op be part of dive planning instead of letting someone else do it for you.

 

[Tropicalwolf]

as TSandM put it so well, a certified diver should have the training, knowledge and skills to plan and execute a safe dive. The fact is there are a whole lot of divers who never reach that point in their recreational diving where they feel competent to grab a buddy and just go diving. I pretty sure that I was not there immediately after my certification. In addition, my local shop ran group trips that were my best way to get in diving until my wife started diving. But at some point I grew past being a beginning diver. I think you not a beginner any more when you are an active diver who can, with no one's help, properly maintain and assemble all your gear, check it for proper operation, weight your self properly, don you gear properly, and plan and carry out a safe dive in an environmentally sound manner (with good buoyancy control) with a buddy but no other supervision. There aren't many newly certified divers who are at that level

^ Fact. Totally Agree!

 

[chrpai]

wouldn't researching and booking your own dive op be part of dive planning instead of letting someone else do it for you.

I guess I'm still confused by the question. The answer is naturally yes. But I'm not sure why you are asking me. I always research and book my own trips. I've never puchased through a middle man except where it was required by the operator.

 

[TSandM]

I also learned that the boat was just a taxi and the rest was up to me. ​

I think he's trying to make the point that different dive boats offer different degrees of support for the new diver -- they're different "taxis" -- and it's important for the new diver to select a boat that will offer the kind of service that he needs.

I probably see this differently, because charter boats in Puget Sound and the San Juans do not put anybody in the water. The DM is there to help folks gear up, and to do the dive site briefing, and to help people reboard, but they do not dive. So from the very beginning, new divers in the Sound, if they are going to do boat dives, have to be self-sufficient.

I would imagine that, anywhere you go, there are "beginner boats" and "advanced boats". Which is why we always tell the new divers to make it clear to the dive op, when they call, that they are new divers and would like to do new diver type dive sites. But I would have a hard time finding it in me to tell a new diver ONLY to dive off a boat with a guide, because we don't do that here at home.

 

[chrpai]

Unless I was at a place that required a DM in the water by law I've always been on my own. Within 9 months of being certified I had done a bunch of quarry dives, Florida keys and Blackbeard cruises.

Blackbeards would tell you about the site and do roll call when you got back. Another year later I was diving off delaware and new jersey.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Unless I was at a place that required a DM in the water by law I've always been on my own. Within 9 months of being certified I had done a bunch of quarry dives, Florida keys and Blackbeard cruises.

Blackbeards would tell you about the site and do roll call when you got back. Another year later I was diving off delaware and new jersey.

I shouldn't have to say this, but if you're diving with buddy's you're not diving alone, so you're not on your own, especially if they're an experienced buddy. I'm talking the fresh out of open water already nervous about it divers, or the single diver traveling alone.