Going deeper than 18m

[Simon-]

This is wrong.

No diver is restricted to ANY depth. We are trained to plan our own dives, and dive our plans. Whether we plan to dive to 10M, 20M, 30M, 40M or any depth.

It is best to slowly increase your max depth over a large number of dives. The diving isn't different when deeper, but the pre=dive plannins and response to emergencies can be.

Sorry, it is not wrong. Unless she is undertaking a training dive to deeper than her certification, any other training dive will not exceed the 18m. Please note, I have specifically mentioned training dives. My other posts referred to dives outside of training.

Diving deeper is different. Far shorter NDL's, increased gas consumption etc.

 

[Crowley]

This one crops up a lot and there is a bit of a grey area but to clarify the position...

The PADI OW and AOW depth limits are, indeed, "recommendations" only. They are not enforceable by any agency - unless local regulations stipulate otherwise. A previous poster, for example, mentioned that PADI DMs are not allowed to take OW divers deeper than their certification allows - ie 18m/60ft. This is not, strictly speaking, correct. A PADI professional is required to abide by the depth restrictions applied to the Scuba Diver certification (12m/40ft) and Junior certifications, but NOT for any certified adult diver.

During training dives, a PADI instructor (as, I assume, are most agency instructors) is required to abide by depth limits which are set as standards in the training program, and rightly so, I think.

Some dive centres do insist on certification before depth - i.e. if you want to go past 18 metres you *must* be AOW certified. One centre I used to work for insisted that a very easy wreck penetration could not be carried out by divers who were not certified with the Wreck Specialty. Says who? The management of the centre, not the agency.

Consider the following - many of the customers I dive with in my current job are very experienced, with 30 or more years and hundreds or thousands of dives under their weight belts. Some of them only got the OW certification because the market changed and most dive centres these days insist on some form of certification before people are allowed to go diving. Also consider that, as an instructor, I can take somebody with only 4 OW training dives to 30 metres on their first AOW training dive (although this is not recommended by PADI). So - who should go to 30 metres? The OW diver with 4 dives or the OW diver with 500?

As a guide, I use my good judgement. I am not going to take a freshly certified diver to 30 metres after just completing their OW course, but I don't mind popping a few metres deeper than the recommended 18. After they make a few more dives, why not, if they're good enough and they understand the extra risk?

Some locations have extra local regulations which are legally binding and insist that depth must equal certification level - I was in Queensland, Australia for a while and I believe (although I'm happy to be proven wrong) that local law limits divers to the maximum depth of their certification - in which case, breaking the limits is equivalent to breaking the speed limit when driving a motor vehicle.

There are extra risks associated with deeper diving, and so therefore good judgement is required if one wishes to descend past the recommended depth limits. I think that in some circumstances, however, if the diver is aware of what they are doing, and is comfortable with those extra risks, that it is acceptable to dive that little bit deeper. I qualify that within the general 30-odd metres of recreational diving, however. If somebody wants to go past 30 metres then yes - appropriate deep diver training is essential.

Safe diving,

C.

 

[fire_diver]

Sorry, it is not wrong. Unless she is undertaking a training dive to deeper than her certification, any other training dive will not exceed the 18m. Please note, I have specifically mentioned training dives. My other posts referred to dives outside of training.

Diving deeper is different. Far shorter NDL's, increased gas consumption etc.

Nope YOU are wrong. Please post
wording and publication were it states diving to any depth is prohibited outside of a junior diver.

Also, this discussion is NOT about an instructor - student relationship, it's about divers diving which is why you made the first comment: "It is the depth of her training and unless she is undergoing training to deeper than that, any other training will be limited to that depth."

You very clearly stated that she could not dive deeper WITHOUT an instructor. PLease don't try to change the facts in the middle of a discussion.

 

[Crush]

Here is an excerpt from the ACUC Open Water Diver Cirriculum of Standards (1 Mar 2008):

The main characteristics of this course is that the students that successfully complete the course, will be properly trained and able to dive, without supervision, accompanied by divers of any level, to the maximum allowable depth for Scuba Diving, which is 40 meters (130 feet). Nevertheless, students are not to exceed the depth of 25 meters (80 feet) until they have gained experience (logged at least 20 dives - 10 hours bottom time - or taken the ACUC Deep Diving Specialty).

The point is some recognized dive agencies do not require a second course to venture deeper. ACUC does, however, require additional diving experience before venturing deeper.

There are no scuba police, but I think that all agencies and many divers would recommend that she stay at or about the 60 - 80 ft limit until she demonstrates comfort, proficiency, and logs a few hours.

 

[NE_SSI_Diver]

I am a Junior Diver and have been led on a dive deeper than 60 feet by a DM on Bonaire. He did not know I was a Junior diver, he never asked, and I guess I could have looked like I was 15 or older. So how strictly are Junior diver depth limitations enforced by dive shops/agencies?

My personal opinion about how deep OW divers can go is that the diver should decide. While 60 feet is a reasonable recommendation, I feel like the diver or dive group should be able to assess their skill level and decided the depth that they are comfortable with. If they simply can't gauge their skill level and think that they can go to 130 feet on their first dive then they need more classroom time to learn the consequences of diving in environments they are not trained to dive in.

 

[DevonDiver]

Here is EXACTLY what PADI say on the matter:



Note: Newly Certified Open Water Divers

The advice given to divers from most, if not all, agencies is to "dive within the limits of your training and experience" (or something along those lines). If she's trained only at Open Water level, then there is a huge degree of prudence in limiting her depth exploration to 18m/60ft whilst she gains confidence, becomes comfortable in SCUBA underwater and embeds her skills.

At the end of the day, 18m/60ft is 'only' 60 seconds to the surface at maximum ascent speed - which is quite a nice safeguard for a diver who has an untested psychological response to incidents, little practical time underwater and is still gaining basic familiarity and competence with their skills. Furthermore, the nitrogen uptake within those depths limits is relatively minimal, given average beginner's dive times and conservative planning via tables. A loss of buoyancy control or stress issue leading to an uncontrolled ascent is likely to be very forgiving.

That's the crux.... shallow dives are more 'forgiving' of mistakes. Newbie divers make mistakes. It's best to keep dives limited, to ensure that no harsh repercussions result of the inevitable mistakes that can be made whilst developing your ability.

The same could be said in regards to any development of scuba experience/training parameters - take it slow, get comfortable and keep things conservative until you're genuinely confident in your capacity to deal with whatever risks pose themselves.... then take small steps forward whilst that confidence is put to the test.

Dive shops often enforce agency 'recommendations' as a matter of business policy. They do so in the best interests of their divers. Other than some dubious issues of liability (hard to credit that in many locations, where liability laws aren't outrageous..and qualified divers are deemed competent to determine their own diving parameters anyway...) there is no benefit for the operation in applying such restrictions. Actually, those restrictions are more financially damaging to the prudent dive operators (lost custom)... but sometimes ethics do win over greed.

In a perfect world, every qualified diver would apply prudent personal limitations on their diving. Those self-imposed prohibitions would (should) reflect an honest, informed appraisal of their capability, an understanding of the risks, and would always err on the side of caution.

Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world, and divers rarely set personal limits - for a multitude of reasons - thus dive operators tend to take the responsibility for keeping people safe. They apply unilateral limits based upon the lowest common denominator - depth of training dives completed.

That may be genuinely limiting for a minority, but for many it does keep them out of trouble that'd they'd otherwise get themselves into...

For those who believe that inexperienced divers should be capable of determining their capability to dive beyond recommended limits, I simply ask "how"?

In what way have they developed the ability to realistically, honestly and practically (not theoretically/academically) self-assess their capability in relationship to the worst-case risk factors that they encounter?

As Crowley mentioned, the 'Scuba Diver' and 'Junior' dive ratings do have specific depth restrictions that PADI Pros are obligated to abide by according to agency standards. This is because (1) the 'Scuba Diver' rating doesn't encompass the full breadth of skills necessary for self-reliance and safety without supervision and (2) Junior divers are deemed 'minors' and not expected to have the developed maturity to make sound decisions regarding personal safety and risk.

 

[fire_diver]

I am a Junior Diver and have been led on a dive deeper than 60 feet by a DM on Bonaire. He did not know I was a Junior diver, he never asked, and I guess I could have looked like I was 15 or older. So how strictly are Junior diver depth limitations enforced by dive shops/agencies?

My personal opinion about how deep OW divers can go is that the diver should decide. While 60 feet is a reasonable recommendation, I feel like the diver or dive group should be able to assess their skill level and decided the depth that they are comfortable with. If they simply can't gauge their skill level and think that they can go to 130 feet on their first dive then they need more classroom time to learn the consequences of diving in environments they are not trained to dive in.

The depth restrictions on junior OW divers isn't about the abilities of the divers. The true affects of diving on the human body are still not known. Since young divers are still developing physically, it is unknown if there are long-term effects from the pressures experienced. This is why the agencies recommend the shallower maximum depths.

 

[Simon-]

Nope YOU are wrong. Please post
wording and publication were it states diving to any depth is prohibited outside of a junior diver.

Also, this discussion is NOT about an instructor - student relationship, it's about divers diving which is why you made the first comment: "It is the depth of her training and unless she is undergoing training to deeper than that, any other training will be limited to that depth."

You very clearly stated that she could not dive deeper WITHOUT an instructor. PLease don't try to change the facts in the middle of a discussion.

These are my first two posts on this thread with pertinent parts, to answer your inaccurate post, in bold. Please show where I stated clearly she couldn't dive deeper than 18m without an instructor. Any dive that I mentioned deeper than 18m with an instructor was mentioned as a training dive. There is a huge difference between what is done on a training dive and what is done outside of training,

I haven't changed facts. I think you have misinterpreted the first post. The 3rd sentance in my first post (in red) was in relation to this sentance from the OP "The other store tells me she can do a deep adventure dive on her first dive on the site with an instructor and thereafter she can go to the bottom without being watched" and is to do with the Adventures in Diving program. Again, dives in training.



The deep adventure dive is only applicable whilst she is diving with an instructor. It forms part of the AOW certification. It doesn't mean that subsequent dives to deeper than her certification can be done without supervision.

What you need to understand is that the 18m limit is the recommended depth for her certification level. If someone decides to dive deeper than their certification, there isn't much anyone can do about it.

If you aren't happy with what they tell you, dive elsewhere.

If you are diving with a shop, they are well within their rights to insist on further training to access slightly deeper sights. After all, it will their liability at risk.

It is the depth of her training and unless she is undergoing training to deeper than that, any other training will be limited to that depth.

I use the word recommended carefully. There are no scuba police, so if she dives deeper than 18m, there is no-one there to "catch" her.

 

[AussiePro]

Didn't mean to start an argument. I think the confusion came because some local shops do have specific rules while others are more relaxed. I know which one I will be going with once she is more confident.