Halcyon products confusion

[H2Andy]

The key work is require. If you require 25lbs of lift, but buy a 40lb wing...are you soon to be toast?

i see... that makes sense

(he doesn't use the word "require" but it comes to the same)

basically, you shouldn't NEED more than 30 lbs on a single or 65 lbs on a double
configuration; if you do, it's a sign of a problem (he is saying)

 

[Twomixdiver]

The drag issue is a null point with the Eclipse wing. There is no discernable size difference between the 30 and 40 lb wing.

Agreed... However. since we are discussing the theology of DIR.....

 

[dbg40]

That's different from what you said before, specifically wondering if he's "screwing people". He can say that someone is an accident waiting to happen if they use a 40 instead of a 30. That's an opinion. It's one I don't agree with but it is one. Selling those 40s anyway is a business decision. Would it be hypocritical for someone to sell something they don't believe their customers should be using? Sure. But that doesn't make it "screwing people". JJ is entitled to his opinion, you're entitled to yours. "Screwing people" is an accusation and one which was unwarranted.

Incorrect. I NEVER said jj was screwing people. I asked IF he was. Question, not accusation. The statement in question is a contradiction in terms, using a lift of greater than 30 lbs on a single rig is an accident waiting to happen. Then why is there an offering of a 40 lb. wing? is it marketing to the inclusion of creating an accident waiting to happen? Or has there been an error in interpretation? I own and use halcyon gear, and like it very much. In fact, im in the process of buying more. However, I take exception when an innocent question gets the gun for no reason. The original poster was told that he was an accident waiting to happen, presumably by the one that would sell him the gun to shoot himself with. Again, Im in the dark with this. I seek no fight, or attack with, or on anyone. I just see no reason to cut into someone with contradicting stories.

 

[H2Andy]

Then why is there an offering of a 40 lb. wing?

not everything Halcyon makes and sells is DIR. I think Halcyon as a manufacturer
has to take into account what people will buy, and i'm sure their market research
showed that there was a demand for the larger wings. (if anything,
i take the "accident waiting to happen" comment as hyperbole)

btw, JJ's store in High Springs sells split fins and other non-DIR items. again,
it's a dive shop. it's got to make money.

at some point, they decided to make Halcyon more than a niche,
DIR-only manufacturer, probably because DIR sales alone couldn't
sustain much growth. just a guess.

 

[Halthron]

Incorrect. I NEVER said jj was screwing people. I asked IF he was. Question, not accusation.

You said So he's just screwing people by selling them a wing that is of no use, and violates his teachings??
You asked a leading question. You didn't ask "Is he just screwing people by ..." In my book, that's an accusation.

 

[JeffG]

not everything Halcyon makes and sells is DIR. I think Halcyon as a manufacturer
has to take into account what people will buy, and i'm sure their market research
showed that there was a demand for the larger wings. (if anything,
i take the "accident waiting to happen" comment as hyperbole)

btw, JJ's store in High Springs sells split fins and other non-DIR items. again,
it's a dive shop. it's got to make money.

at some point, they decided to make Halcyon more than a niche,
DIR-only manufacturer, probably because DIR sales alone couldn't
sustain much growth. just a guess.

Plus a 40lb wing may not be 40lbs of lift. Or what if you had a 130cft tank and one of those old Halogen lights with the SLA batteries. You might not have a weight belt and your rig could be around 40lbs neg.

 

[dbg40]

You said So he's just screwing people by selling them a wing that is of no use, and violates his teachings??
You asked a leading question. You didn't ask "Is he just screwing people by ..." In my book, that's an accusation.

It was indeed a leading question, and chosen very carefully for the desired effect.
If there were not so many intent on blindly defending every, single word that is said on the subject, these mindless arguements would not happen. Any reasonable person can understand marketing. And everyone needs to make a buck. Im sorry that the irony of this whole arguement has eluded capture. There is no win on this subject, and it has been done more times than is reasonable. Once again, look back at the posts with an open mind, and I hope you will see the legions threw the first dog into the ring. For no reason than to cut a "lesser" diver. Foul! One can only learn with an open mind, and you should'nt assume anything about another's training because of his posts. Not everyone assumes the role of guardian, there are some that agree that it's not for everyone, and not for everyone to take to the extreme.

 

[Jasonmh]

Its because of the misunderstanding/interpretation of what JJ said.

The quote can be split into two parts

a)


and b)



Going to a 40lb wing over a 30lb wing (which is the context of this thread) brings into play part a). Part a..is inefficient but is not an "accident waiting to happen"


Requiring lots of lift...ie the diver is extremely negative (lets say...lots of steel deco tanks) is part b and is an "accident waiting to happen"

So the wrong conclusion was being reached from an incorrect understanding of what JJ was saying.

A great explaination of the text Jeff, thanks.

 

[Halthron]

Once again, look back at the posts with an open mind, and I hope you will see the legions threw the first dog into the ring. For no reason than to cut a "lesser" diver.

There was no cut. Floater had seen that the guy had posted in the DIR forum and simply gave what JJs opinion (one, but not the only, of the voices of DIR) is.

 

[BarryNL]

For me, the 30lbs "rule" makes no sense without context. Surely this limit can't be applicable to diving with an aluminium tank in a 3mm wetsuit as well as with a steel tank in a drysuit.

I can imagine that if someone needs >30lbs lift with an aluminium tank in a 3mm wetsuit then they are clearly seriously overweighted somewhere but, as has been mentioned here, the loss of buoyancy due to a flooded drysuit with a 300 thingys (what is the unit of undersuits, anyway?) undersuit might be 20lbs - add in a 10lbs negative tank and you have a potential problem getting back to the surface.