Hiding your certification level

[fisheater]

When the facts are on your side, argue the facts.
When the law is on your side, argue the law.
When you neither have the facts or the law on your side, pound on the table.

I just heard this again today when discussing a case with our lawyers. Seems to apply.

Quite true.

A couple of weeks ago, I had neither the law nor the facts on my side, just a common sense vertion of fairness.

So, I resorted to arguing the plot line of that classic Western "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" (1962, John Ford, dirctor, Paramount Pictures). I won, too!

 

[Walter]

He needed killing?

 

[SailNaked]

thank you all for the informative thread I love the various points of view from the lawyers to the insurance agents. I never tell anyone I am a network engineer, too many people have slow laptops.

I have always heard it said that instructors will show only their OW cert on vacation however as a DMC reading this thread I have been convinced to show whatever cert I have.

My reasoning is that real liability is not determined by the card. If you see someone in need of help you will help them whatever your cert is. If you do your best you should not be guilty of doing less. I see no reason to hide my cert level or my experience as it is what it is and nothing more. An instructor card does not mean more than what you were taught and learned. I would be more concerned as a doctor on a dive boat than as an instructor having an implied liability, and thankfully there are few computers on dive boats.

I will see some day soon if it gets annoying on cattle boats however since I would not advertize that I was an instructor there any more there than I would ordering a pizza in town I doubt it will be a problem. I intend to become an instructor to advance the fun and joy of diving, why would I not want to help the noobs on the cattle boats in COZ.

I would do my best to rescue anyone I saw in need, if I did not see it then it would make no difference what card I presented to the Dive Op. however if there was any question on my qualifications to effect a rescue I would never want them questioning why I mislead the Op. easy enough to follow the standards, hard to build character if you need to in court.

 

[leapfrog]

I intend to become an instructor to advance the fun and joy of diving, why would I not want to help the noobs on the cattle boats in COZ?......

That's cool. When you become an instructor and you're off on vacation, you'll get over it and stop wanting to help the noobs on the cattle boats in COZ (rhymes with OZ).. You'll realize you are interfering with natural selecion(aka Darwinism)...:joke:

 

[ItsBruce]

A lawyer gets paid for representing you.

Defense lawyers get paid for representing their clients. Some plaintiffs' lawyers get paid for representing their clients. A plaintiff who pays by the hour must have a darned good case or a darned inexpensive lawyer.

Most lawyers who represent plaintiffs get paid on a contingency fee basis. If there is no recovery, there is no fee. Thus, lawyers who take bad cases tend to starve and leave the practice.

BTW: I do not believe the fear of being bothered while on vacation is a reasonable fear. First, in my experience DMs and instructors who dive while on vacation love diving so much that it is not a bother. Second, except when people may be intimidated knowing I'm a lawyer, I do not hide my profession and except for a few close personal friends, no one bothers me for legal advice. Sure, I occasionally find myself in discussions, but unless I find it interesting, it is easy enough to excuse myself. If it is no big deal to me, I find it hard to believe it is a big deal to a DM or an instructor.

 

[leapfrog]

If it is no big deal to me, I find it hard to believe it is a big deal to a DM or an instructor.

Bruce, you seem like a smart operator. It's really not about being bothered. I never hide my "status" from the people running the show so if I'm needed, I'm there.

OTOH, if the customers become aware that you are an instructor, suddenly you have stopped being another vacationer and you are "free help, supervision, guide" on the dive.

This is a disservice to the diver becaue he or she gets into the habit of sticking real close to an instructor or DM the whole time and end up becoming "resort divers" (frequently criticised on SB). Its also a disservice to the dive pro. WE NEED TO JUST GO AND HAVE FUN. The biggest factor FOR instructor burn out is permanently converting something we love, EVEN ON A PAID VACATION, into a chore.

As an attorney, you may or may not choose to take your work with you when you go to the Virgin Islands.

Those of us who chose another lifestyle did so precisely to avoid that.

 

[fisheater]

He needed killing?

Nope, but I like way you think. If you PM, I can explain the circumstances. It had to do with avoiding the Statute of Limitations on a wrongful death suit.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[The Kraken]

Well one way to get around that is to say to the dive operation, "Yes, I'm an instructor. So, you want me to dive with this fellow because he's so new. OK, that'll be $150, please."

das K-apitalist

 

[KY_BOB]

I do not hide my profession and except for a few close personal friends, no one bothers me for legal advice. Sure, I occasionally find myself in discussions, but unless I find it interesting, it is easy enough to excuse myself. If it is no big deal to me, I find it hard to believe it is a big deal to a DM or an instructor.

Granted, I live in a very small town (everyone knows everyone) but I can't have dinner within 15 miles if my house without being questioned about insurance.

If it's an intelligent conversation about insurance coverage, I'm usually glad to join in and give any insight that I can. More often than not it's a b!tch session about what someone is paying for their coverage or how a claim was handled, be it directed at me or another agent or company. Those, I try to politely back out of. Some people won't let you be polite. You can never be a jerk when you sell a service in a small town but I have had to be blunt and tell them that they would have to call me at work, when I had access to my computer.

I could see a DM or instructor being hounded like that, maybe not.

As a part joke but part serious answer when I get the the insistent question question "when is my insurance going down?!?" I tell them when attorneys, body shops, and doctors start charging less, expect to see a decrease in your rates. That's the 3 things that your paying for.

(No offense Bruce, I like you)

 

[diverdoug1]

Granted, I live in a very small town (everyone knows everyone) but I can't have dinner within 15 miles if my house without being questioned about insurance.

If it's an intelligent conversation about insurance coverage, I'm usually glad to join in and give any insight that I can. More often than not it's a b!tch session about what someone is paying for their coverage or how a claim was handled, be it directed at me or another agent or company. Those, I try to politely back out of. Some people won't let you be polite. You can never be a jerk when you sell a service in a small town but I have had to be blunt and tell them that they would have to call me at work, when I had access to my computer.

I could see a DM or instructor being hounded like that, maybe not.

As a part joke but part serious answer when I get the the insistent question question "when is my insurance going down?!?" I tell them when attorneys, body shops, and doctors start charging less, expect to see a decrease in your rates. That's the 3 things that your paying for.

(No offense Bruce, I like you)

Dude, you have to admit , my fees as a doctor are much more affected by malpractice premiums, than your insurance fees are affected by my fees. You are my second biggest expense , after staff salaries. I am sure that your health insurance premiums are not in the top 3 of your expenditures.