Hiding your certification level

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Fellows! We all know (or at least should) that insurance rates are primarily dependent upon the rates of return the finance guys are getting on the company's investments. When interest/return rates were high, insurance premiums were low. Heck. MGM Grand was even able to purchase fire insurance AFTER the devastating fire. Company calculated that they'd make money on the premium during long process of being forced to pay the victims, even after paying the defense attorneys.
 
Dude, you have to admit , my fees as a doctor are much more affected by malpractice premiums, than your insurance fees are affected by my fees. You are my second biggest expense , after staff salaries. I am sure that your health insurance premiums are not in the top 3 of your expenditures.


Absolutely! Health care costs are going to continue to spiral out of control if there isn't some type of tort reform. I don't blame the physicians for the excessive expense. The cost of malpractice insurance and the number of uninsured patients that have no ability to pay but still have to be treated are the two biggies. The number of uninsured people in my rural area of west Kentucky is startling. When they go to the Dr. or ER and can't pay, the money to keep the doors open has to come from those of us that do pay our insurance premiums and/or bills.

BTW: 90% of what I deal with is auto and home insurance. So the comments/complaints that I get are mostly over auto insurance premiums. Those premiums are driven by loss ratios of bodily injury, property damage, and litigation costs. There are other operating expenses but they are pretty predictable.

Sorry for the hijacking the thread.
 
Fellows! We all know (or at least should) that insurance rates are primarily dependent upon the rates of return the finance guys are getting on the company's investments. When interest/return rates were high, insurance premiums were low. Heck. MGM Grand was even able to purchase fire insurance AFTER the devastating fire. Company calculated that they'd make money on the premium during long process of being forced to pay the victims, even after paying the defense attorneys.

Too bad the insurer underestimated how long the process would take.

I know this is off topic, but the MGM and Hilton fires PROVED that smoke does not always rise ... It follows the path of insured defendants.
 
If I paid for a charter to go to the Spiegal Grove and was told that I was going to be taken to the City of Washington instead for any reason other than weather, I would demand a refund especially if I had the requisite skill to dive that site.

Key Largo is not a good example, because there really isn't that big a difference between most sites, people are on their onw to plan theier dives for the most part, and operators will rarely choose a site because of the perceived ability of the divers. The exception is that many operators require AOW for the Speigel Grove, so you will have to show that level at least. But the highlighted text fits in with the discussion in a more generic sense: how will they know you have the requisite skills for a site if you don't tell them?

If that charter was going to that site and I was left behind because I was not an instructor or some other professional diver then yes, I would get my money back. There would be no way they would want me in their shop or near their boat if I was not refunded my money for all the stink I would raise.

Interesting. You hid your certification level from them and then raised a stink because they acted appropriately on what you told them? You think it is outrageous that the operator did not realize you were lying?

If I am taking a random charter with no destination until I get on the boat, that is my problem and I have to deal with what ever dive that is offered and would not expect to get a refund or anything.

This is actually the most likely scenario. This is exactly how things work in Cozumel, so this is what you can expect when you sign up with a large operator that has multiple boats:

You get on the boat and start heading south, since almost all operators start north of the most common sites. The operator asks what sites people want to dive. A couple of the people have never been on the island and don't know any of the names. A couple announce that they are newly certified and don't want to do anything too challenging. Another pair say something similar. The DM suggests Palancar Gardens, a very nice site with not too much difficulty. You have a fairly benign dive with few if any swim throughs--not at all what you were hoping for. Bad luck in getting on a boat with so many beginners? Nope! The night before, the operator divided the divers into groups by perceived ability. You got the beginner boat because you presented a beginner card.

While you were preparing to splash, you were passed by a small boat from the same operator speeding on south, bound for Columbia Deep or Punta Sur or Maracaibo. That boat has nothing but highly experienced divers and instructors preparing for an outstanding dive on the more challenging reefs. Lots of interesting swim throughs. If you had presented your instructor card, you would have been with them.

But that was your choice.

That's cool. When you become an instructor and you're off on vacation, you'll get over it and stop wanting to help the noobs on the cattle boats in COZ (rhymes with OZ).. You'll realize you are interfering with natural selecion(aka Darwinism)...:rofl3::joke:

Why are you on a cattle boat in COZ? There aren't that many...Oh, that's right! You showed your OW card and got assigned to it instead of the small 6 pack full of experienced divers, none of whom would have needed your help.

Here is a more likely scenario with a cattle boat, one that describes an actual experience of my own only a couple of months ago in Hawaii.

You, the OW card-presenting instructor show up on the boat and find you have an assigned tank with 16 total passengers. The DM starts the briefing immediately, saying that the 16 divers have been placed in three groups for the upcoming dive. You are in group 3, the people in the seats around you, and you meet your assigned DM. As you talk on the way out, you realize that the rest of the group does not have a lot of experience. You don't want them to know you are an instructor, so you keep your mouth shut as they fumble around with their equipment.

You arrive at the site, and you watch Group 1 splash in. Only 4 divers in that group, and they all look pretty comfortable as they hit the water and descend immediately. Group 2 takes a while to get in the water and clear of the dive deck, and so does your group. It is taking a long time to get in the water. Once int he ocean, there is some trouble getting started as people struggle with their buoyancy. The DM is extremely controlling and attentive during the dive, leading everyone in a line, checking air supplies, etc. You feel like a child.

At one point you look below and see group 1. It does not look like the DM is leading them--it looks more like a group of sophisticated divers enjoying themselves as they poke around the reef looking for critters.

Soon your DM notes that several of the divers are low on air, and your group ascends. You leave the water with nearly half the air in your tank.

After you are on the boat, Group 1 completes its dive, and they are all smiles. What a great dive! It occurs to you that every one of the divers in group 1 is highly experienced, and they enjoyed a very different dive from your group, even though you were on the same site.

If you had shown your instructor card, you would have been a part of Group 1, but, hey, that's the sacrifice you make when you don't want to answer noob questions.
 
boulderjohn:
Interesting. You hid your certification level from them and then raised a stink because they acted appropriately on what you told them? You think it is outrageous that the operator did not realize you were lying?

I'm not following you here. First, there is no lie in producing a card when asked for a card. Second, if you are informed you need at least an AOW card to dive a particular site and you produce such a card, how are they acting appropriately on what you told them if they then say you aren't qualified to make the dive? Who is lying here? The person who shows an advanced card when asked for one or the person who says an advanced card is all that is required, then says the advanced isn't enough?
 
Why are you on a cattle boat in COZ? There aren't that many...Oh, that's right! You showed your OW card and got assigned to it instead of the small 6 pack full of experienced divers, none of whom would have needed your help.
If you read the thread,
1. I'm NOT on a cattleboat in COZ, SailNaked is.
2. I have never withheld my Instructor card from the Operator.
3. I usually go on vacation with other divers I already know, I'm the lowest ranking instructor of the group.
 
I'm not following you here. First, there is no lie in producing a card when asked for a card. Second, if you are informed you need at least an AOW card to dive a particular site and you produce such a card, how are they acting appropriately on what you told them if they then say you aren't qualified to make the dive? Who is lying here? The person who shows an advanced card when asked for one or the person who says an advanced card is all that is required, then says the advanced isn't enough?

Perhaps I was not following him. As I read the post, he was hypothesizing a situation in which he presented a beginning card and was sent to a beginning site by the operator instead of a more advanced site. In this hypothetical scenario, he would raise a stink and demand his money back because he did not get to go to the more advanced site.

Anyway, that's how I read it. Perhaps it was a misreading.
 
Perhaps I was not following him. As I read the post, he was hypothesizing a situation in which he presented a beginning card and was sent to a beginning site by the operator instead of a more advanced site. In this hypothetical scenario, he would raise a stink and demand his money back because he did not get to go to the more advanced site.

Anyway, that's how I read it. Perhaps it was a misreading.


I am a her, not a him, by the way, hence the pink shoes in the avatar. You misinterpreted what I wrote because you broke the paragraph apart. Most paragraphs are formed because the information contained in it, belong together.

I originally posted:

If I paid for a charter to go to the Spiegal Grove and was told that I was going to be taken to the City of Washington instead for any reason other than weather, I would demand a refund especially if I had the requisite skill to dive that site. If that charter was going to that site and I was left behind because I was not an instructor or some other professional diver then yes, I would get my money back. There would be no way they would want me in their shop or near their boat if I was not refunded my money for all the stink I would raise.

Again, show the card required for the dive that you pay for and dive that site. If the op does not take me to the site I paid for, and it is going there anyway, and I have shown the necessary card to dive that site, I will either dive the site or get my money back. Easy as that.

As I already mentioned, just because a person is an instructor does not mean that he or she has the skills to match the dive site just like any other diver out there. It is your experiences that give you skills not the card you carry in your log book. No dive op is going to know your skill level unless you have already dived with them before.
 
I am a her, not a him, by the way, hence the pink shoes in the avatar.

Sorry. I was not paying attention there and should have picked up the clues.

You misinterpreted what I wrote because you broke the paragraph apart. Most paragraphs are formed because the information contained in it, belong together.

Sorry again.

As I already mentioned, just because a person is an instructor does not mean that he or she has the skills to match the dive site just like any other diver out there. It is your experiences that give you skills not the card you carry in your log book. No dive op is going to know your skill level unless you have already dived with them before.

But they have to have something to go on when they make plans, and in my experience with multiple operators in multiple areas of the world, that is how they do it. The vast majority of divers show an OW card only, and the operator will often ask for more information beyond that, like number of dives. There was recently a thread on SB in which a key participant offered that she had more than 200 dives over 20 years, and I am sure it was true. I am also sure from what she wrote that her 20 years of cruise diving had kept her at a perennial beginner level--she knew very little about diving.

So operators have to go on something.

If they have 30 customers to divide into 5 boats, they may have 20 with OW cards, 5 with more advanced recreational cards, and 5 with professional cards. If you were that operator, how would you divide for the next day's dive? Would you just make it random on the theory that you really can't be sure until you see the diver, or would you put the professionals in one boat, the advanced divers in another, and divide everyone else among the rest?

I don't know what you would do, but I know what has been done in 100% of the cases in which I have dived around the world. You may not agree with it, but that is what happens.
 

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