How common are sabotages?
- Thread starter alewar
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Moving lines and screwing with safety/important equipment like that is just not justifiable in any way. If I ever found someone doing that they would have some broken legs and a hard time diving. Sorry for such a harsh response but when people do those things they are playing with people's lives and do not deserve to be in the cave. I am not cave certified but would like to be and that just sounds like a nightmare that nobody should have to deal with.
People become so territorial that they perform things like this and do not see anything negative about their behavior. I have seen people that have access by permit become extremely defensive when another group is accessing a site. You are right,there is no justification for alteration of any kind that could be people in jeopardy.
ajduplessis
Contributor
Kelly and Pete have it right. Humans can be very territorial. Especially cavers, dry cavers as well as divers.
Certainly there is never any justification for vandalizing equipment or compromising someone's safety.
But look at it from another side. Say you've spent months (or years!) ridgewalking, studying maps and geological and hydrological data, working with landowners, lugging equipment through the woods, donating blood to the mosquitoes, and crawling, diving, and maybe digging in every pothole in three counties. Then when you finally discover going cave, somebody can't keep his or her mouth shut. Word gets around. The next time you show up at the cave that you discovered and are exploring, there are other people there scooping your find.
Then imagine that this other group, maybe better funded, better connected, or just more politically devious, goes to work with the landowner, the water district, state and federal agencies, etc., telling everyone that you and your team are a bunch of ignorant, poorly trained, unsafe local yokels who are going to end up getting somebody killed, and that they are the only ones who can safely explore this cave. Then you're notified that you can no longer enter the cave you found. Access has become permit-only, there is only one permit open at a time, and the other group has it.
Or sometimes it's just locals vs. outsiders. I remember reading that during the exploration of Sistema Huautla in the '90's, locals with a machete chopped the rope into the entrance pit while a caver was on it. I'd guess that anyone who lives in an area that attracts a lot of tourists can understand the urge, if not the act.
As I say, there is never any justification for doing anything that would compromise someone's safety. But humans being what they are, it's not surprising that friendships have ended over such things and that in some cases stupid and/or criminal things have been done.
For 99.999% of human time on the planet, we lived in small tribal extended family groups that competed with neighboring groups for territory and resources. "Civilization" is a relatively new phenomenon, and conflict has been a constant throughout history. It's no wonder that some of us act the way we do. One would hope that we would learn to rise above our baser instincts, but one of the strongest human urges is the one that makes boys on the playground yell, "Me and my buddies are cool; you and your buddies suck!"
Mike
Certainly there is never any justification for vandalizing equipment or compromising someone's safety.
But look at it from another side. Say you've spent months (or years!) ridgewalking, studying maps and geological and hydrological data, working with landowners, lugging equipment through the woods, donating blood to the mosquitoes, and crawling, diving, and maybe digging in every pothole in three counties. Then when you finally discover going cave, somebody can't keep his or her mouth shut. Word gets around. The next time you show up at the cave that you discovered and are exploring, there are other people there scooping your find.
Then imagine that this other group, maybe better funded, better connected, or just more politically devious, goes to work with the landowner, the water district, state and federal agencies, etc., telling everyone that you and your team are a bunch of ignorant, poorly trained, unsafe local yokels who are going to end up getting somebody killed, and that they are the only ones who can safely explore this cave. Then you're notified that you can no longer enter the cave you found. Access has become permit-only, there is only one permit open at a time, and the other group has it.
Or sometimes it's just locals vs. outsiders. I remember reading that during the exploration of Sistema Huautla in the '90's, locals with a machete chopped the rope into the entrance pit while a caver was on it. I'd guess that anyone who lives in an area that attracts a lot of tourists can understand the urge, if not the act.
As I say, there is never any justification for doing anything that would compromise someone's safety. But humans being what they are, it's not surprising that friendships have ended over such things and that in some cases stupid and/or criminal things have been done.
For 99.999% of human time on the planet, we lived in small tribal extended family groups that competed with neighboring groups for territory and resources. "Civilization" is a relatively new phenomenon, and conflict has been a constant throughout history. It's no wonder that some of us act the way we do. One would hope that we would learn to rise above our baser instincts, but one of the strongest human urges is the one that makes boys on the playground yell, "Me and my buddies are cool; you and your buddies suck!"
Mike
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You are right. There has always been a gentlemen's agreement. When diving in a system that ongoing exploration is going on,you don't scoop that person's exploration. If you find going passage,you seek their permission first. Is this done anymore? Just as much as we give the exiting the team right away. This further adds to protectionism and territorialism. The funny story is how Vengence sink got its name. Another team scooped Exley's exploration project,and when he found out he got in and laid line at the end of their line. The first sink he encountered he called Vengence.
geko21
Registered
As an exploration cave diver in the Yucatan (full time) I can tell you that the 'climate' here is horrible. Competition over sites, over teaching opportunities, over data, a virtual marriage of a certain agency and a local private dive shop causing all kinds of intrigue and trouble, the list goes on and on... I come from dry caving background in Europe and although the situation there is not nice, I have never seen anything like what is happening here. If one searches for decent persons in this milieu one would be in a Diogenes-like situation. We are all doing this to ourselves. This vocation stimulates EGO games like no other. It is very sad.
I have heard of swimmers at Ginnie Springs taking stage bottles to the front office thinking somehow that a diver "lost a tank". not exactly sabotage but it has the same effect. If I leave gear anywhere, I make sure it is locked up and secured. I use a ring around the neck of my single cylinders to run a chain through.
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