How happy are you with today's level of Diver Education?

[JeffG]

Why do you only poo poo PADI, when many other agencies do similar?

I would poo poo any store doing weekend classes regardless of certifying agency. I just haven't seen them. (Which is not to say they don't exist.)

 

[Diver0001]

They are not Competent ... Beginner at best, but we seem to have a slew of instuctors here on the board who believe that an O/W Certification is, "only a learner's permit" and neither demands or represents Competence.

I'm not sure you get that.

I think what most people recognise is that a standard scuba course doesn't give the student much *experience* and the expression "learners permit" is an analogy that tries to express that you don't know everything yet and it's time to go out and get some experience.

R..

 

[JeffG]

JeffG, the links you provided show 25-27 hours of classroom/pool, with at least 2 additional days for checkout dives. There are many agencies one could receive OW certification through with that schedule. Why do you only poo poo PADI, when many other agencies do similar?

also another note. Its not the actual time that is the problem. Its just cramming it in over a couple of days instead of over 6 weeks. Some students do ok with that style and other don't.

but doing 6 short pool sessions vs 2 long ones, some skills get done more often just of how the class is structured. (Like how to put a BC on a tank for instance.)

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

also another note. Its not the actual time that is the problem. Its just cramming it in over a couple of days instead of over 6 weeks. Some students do ok with that style and other don't.

but doing 6 short pool sessions vs 2 long ones, some skills get done more often just of how the class is structured. (Like how to put a BC on a tank for instance.)

Have you actually seen these classes? Do you know exactly how many times a student puts a BC on a tank in each class? Could it be possible different instructors with this same shop do things different ways, within the same schedule? Is it also possible the students they accept for the weekend class are better students? (Weekend programs, consisting of about 25 hours of training are for the self motivated student with a weekend available)

 

[JeffG]

Have you actually seen these classes? Do you know exactly how many times a student puts a BC on a tank in each class? Could it be possible different instructors with this same shop do things different ways, within the same schedule? Is it also possible the students they accept for the weekend class are better students? (Weekend programs, consisting of about 25 hours of training are for the self motivated student with a weekend available)

<snicker>

Denial comes in all forms.

Maybe these students are the laziest and want it done the quickest.

 

[Diver0001]

I agree with Jeff. Retention does depend to a certain extent on repetition *over time*. There are very good studies that essentially prove that and the more you cram something into a shorter time frame, the more you undermine long term retention and therefore quality of the course.

R..

 

[Teamcasa]

First let me say this; the training today is not as complete or as comprehensive as my initial training was. (A long time ago).

However, the training my lovely bride received 3 years ago was competent. I took the class with her and enjoyed myself. The training was sufficient enough to allow her to realize she needed to do a lot more diving to become a confident and competent diver. This November she will be making her 100th dive on Catalina and is really looking forward to it.

Be that as it may, she still, even after 98 (mostly cold water SoCal) dives, she realizes that her skills need more polish. The bottom line for me is that even if your instructor was a cross between Thalassamania, Walter, JeffG, Pete, John Chatterton with a touch of Navy Seal/Chuck Norris tossed in, you are one day going to realize that your training will only get you so far, and in order to be considered a skilled diver, you need to dive and dive a lot.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

<snicker>

Denial comes in all forms.

Maybe these students are the laziest and want it done the quickest.

Maybe like someone who denies that his negative posts on SB with regards to PADI 2-day classes are without validity and only intended to stir the PADI bashing pot?

 

[RJP]

<snicker>

Maybe these students are the laziest and want it done the quickest.

Most students don't know about "quickest" vs not...they are driving down the street and think "Hey, maybe I'd like to try diving..." and go into a shop...

If they then go into a shop and hear "6-8 weeks" a great many of them will think "Hey, maybe I'd like to try something else..."

It's the unfortunate balance between making initial training EFFECTIVE without making it so onerous that it becomes a real or perceived BARRIER TO ENTRY.

As you can imagine it's ten times the challenge in a resort setting...

 

[ptyx]

What do you think is reasonable in-terms of additional training hours (classroom, pool, open-water)? A new diver will require further experience, but if the goal is for him/her to be able to dive safely with a buddy unsupervised what could make the difference?

I don't know about pool, as pool is mostly about personal skills, and those vary wildly from one student to another.

What is certainly lacking in PADI and SSI OW/AOW is the CMAS** requirements about the student being a functional member of a dive team:

In order to achieve the level of CMAS Two Star Diver the students should
demonstrate in the course of the Program that they have the ability to carry out
the following under diving conditions:
[...]
8. Be able to act as a member of a diving team, both while submerged, and during the
surface preparation for the dive.
9. Demonstrate ability to navigate underwater with and without use of compass over a
distance of 150 feet (50 meters).

Content. Subjects and skills of importance for emphasis during briefings and dives
include:
[...]
• Dive planning, equipment preparation and care, and buddy diving. Each diver
is to assume a leadership role on at least one dive.

(Note that I'm trying to compare the certifications in term of allowed team autonomy - in terms of personal skills CMAS* would be closer to OW, but in term of autonomy OW is closer to CMAS*** - if it hasn't changed and if I remember correctly).

The problem with that is not only a matter of teaching hours/number of dives, but also a matter of group size. It is unrealistic to expect a OW or AOW diver to succeed in leading more than 2 other divers. So 3 students max for an instructor underwater (and no rotation as the evaluation is supposed to be over a complete dive). And at least one extra dive per student.