How happy are you with today's level of Diver Education?

[*dave*]

My initial cert was solid. Six week, two nights a week and I really looked forward to the sessions.

I re-certified 5 years ago with my wife in a private class. The instructor was great. A real nice guy, who had been diving since the early sixties.

The course consisted of a lot of interesting stories about the instructor and covering material we'd already gone over in the book/dvd. Pool sessions consisted of two sets mask clears, purges and retrievals. Once we did them, that was good enough. All skills were done on our knees and no advice was given regarding buoyancy control.

My wife wasn't able to complete the third dive and we actually had a near miss on the OOA ascent without the instructor or DC even realizing my wife was sucking on a reg that was only half in her mouth.

I came into the course with well over 1000 dives, so I wasn't really put off by the fact that I learned nothing, I was there for my wife. We both thought the instructor was great.

I had signed up for the MD package, so as I continued my 'education' I actually expected to learn something. What I got for nav was a towel over my head. I did one triangular run in the classroom and that was about it.

Deep consisted of review and swapping narcosis stories.

Stress and Rescue was more review, but I got some practice dealing with unruly dive cons.

I went on to become a DC and worked quite a few classes with the instructor. It was tedious and I knew I could do a lot better. His students were mostly train wrecks, but a few did fine and I'd attribute their success to their aptitude and motivation.

This instructor has certified hundreds of divers. The vast majority still think he did a great job.

Oh, my wife did a referral in MX. She also got a SSI card from the instructor, even though he'd never seen her in the water. Last year I had a student I wouldn't pass out of checkouts. She got him do do her referral paperwork and when she returned, he asked me if I was going to order her card. "Not without checkouts" was my reply. He ordered the card for her using his instructor credentials.

This is the kind of crap I would like to see stop.

 

[walke121]

I agree with Jeff. Retention does depend to a certain extent on repetition *over time*. There are very good studies that essentially prove that and the more you cram something into a shorter time frame, the more you undermine long term retention and therefore quality of the course.

R..

You are correct but think about how much information can be forgotten over 6 weeks. Many people who take courses over a long period of time forget stuff learned in the beginning. Both ways are equally effective I feel but some students are better one way and some students are better with the other. People learn in different ways. I mean if you spend 20 hours in the classroom over 2 days or over several weeks its still 20 hours. Most people who take the long classes don't sit there and loathe over their books for hours every night. Most have jobs and kids and other things that require their time.

 

[TSandM]

Originally Posted by boulderjohn: how does UTD get away with teaching Tech 1 and Tech 2 in only 1/2 of one day combined?

They don't, and I'm not sure where you got the idea that was possible. Tech 1 is a minimum of 3 days -- 8 hours of classroom, and 8 dives. My Tech 1 took two days of classroom work (plus classroom time on the diving days) and four days of diving.

Anyway, to answer the original question: I'm sad about the education that a lot of divers get in their OW classes, because I believe diving is a lot like skiing. Until you have a certain level of competence, it isn't really very much fun (at least in cold water/low viz). And I have to say that, after watching Peter teach through this summer, I'm absolutely convinced that it isn't brief classes that are the problem. I've seen him do a couple of classes within the time format his shop uses, and turn out divers who are able, on the fourth OW dive, to plan a simple circuit of a familiar site, and execute that plan without a guide (not always without a hitch, but well enough).

I've also watched another instructor produce students within the same time structure who have been well coached on drills, but have no inkling of neutral buoyancy or how to swim side-by-side as a buddy pair. That instructor isn't producing divers, he's producing skills performers, and he is absolutely convinced that what he is doing is not only correct, but is what his agency wants him to do.

I was gently saddened on our recent trip when a couple of our companions told me they were really enjoying the fact that they were being expected to do some of their own navigation and dive planning. "It's a stretch for us, but I think we're doing okay," was the comment. These people have dived for YEARS and have never been anywhere where they weren't shepherded by a dive guide. Now, THAT's sad.

 

[The Chairman]

But ok, that's academic .... Frankly for some instructors, 200 hours wouldn't be enough to get the same results that others might manage in 10 or 12. There's a HUGE range of effectiveness and efficiency from one instructor to the next.

R..

Amen, Brother R!

Most people become instructors based on their proficiency in the water and/or how helpful they are with others. I remember my OW instructor telling me how the colors on the reef change at night. When I pointed out that the difference was the lack of color absorption by the light you were carrying, I got a puzzled look and then I saw the light bulb go off (still dim). It was then he proclaimed that I should be an instructor. It was then that I realized that many instructors really don't understand what they are teaching.

 

[Diver0001]

I mean if you spend 20 hours in the classroom over 2 days or over several weeks its still 20 hours.

Well what I was saying before is that this isn't the case. There are very good studies out there showing that if you space learning sessions your "forget" things at a slower rate... And the retention isn't a little bit better, it's a lot better, like 50% or something.

So.... well.... to put it bluntly, you're wrong. 20 hours isn't 20 hours. 20 hours and good timing will get you the best long term results. 20 hours of cramming won't.

R..

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Each of us may have been at dive sites, or on charter boats where other divers are present. Perhaps some of us have been "buddied-up" with strangers.

How competent (in your opinion) are today's new divers?

Do you feel that the average diver being certified today is capable of looking after himself and his/her buddy in the water?

Could today's training courses be improved? If so would shortening or lengthening the SCUBA program produce better results?

I'll comment as a non-instructor, completely average diver trained by PADI in 1976, who then oberserved the current PADI OW and AOW when my kids went through it in 2007:

1. Some new divers are just fine... but the ones I've seen who are good were "water babies" before getting certified (surfers, free divers, competetive swimmers, life guards, etc.). Others new divers are train wrecks. It is about a 50/50 split in the limited sample I've seen.

2. I feel that the same 50/50 split applies with regards to newly certified OW divers being less capable of self-supervision immediately upon graduation. Some are fine, some are only really safe if they are following a DM or instructor. I do not think this stems so much from the classroom portion of today's classes, but from the apparent decrease in water skills and water time required? That would be my guess.

3. I would like to see the basic OW program lengthened to include basic free diving skills, the swimming requirements beefed-up a bit, rescue and self-rescue skills included, more instruction on dive planning and on gas management. And even just a few dives added to the curriculum would go a very long way in increasing new diver confidence and I believe safety.

So can new diver training be improved? All the tools are there, but the limiting factor will probably always be a perceived financial / motivation road block ("Students will never be willing to pay $XXX and spend that many evenings and weekends to get certified!") than a true road block.

Best wishes.

 

[AfterDark]

Could not have said it better myself.

Some people are just fine, and some are horror shows.

It is funny, though, how you can pretty well tell where a noob was trained by how good or bad they are in the water.

There are two local dive shops whose trainees I can tell in an instant because they have no idea what they are doing. I am not going to mention names in public (I am not a nark), but these shops should have their licensing revoked by their agencies.

I am going to brag on one of my local shops, Capt Nemos in Columbia, MO where we got our OW training... I went out with a bunch of their noobs this summer and every one of them were ready to rock... and two of their dive-masters arranged the dives as a "no cost fun trip", and spent the day working with the already certified divers teaching and reinforcing skills at absolutely no charge to the divers. No hand holding or babysitting, just fun and diving and sharing with less experienced divers.

Though I agree with you in general, One would think, hope, that the training course would weed those out. Judging by this and several other threads, seems that someone would have to be a clear and present danger to the instructors and the class to be "weeded out". I can see solo diving becoming more popular as time goes by, especially if the current situation continues and / or gets worst. Better to dive alone than to dive with someone that makes alarms go off in your head.

 

[101recon]

I think one of the main issues here is personal responsibility.Not only for your own life,but also the life of a fellow diver.It may be in your hands on any dive.

Having just been certified,I recently compared the local dive agencies and found little difference in course offerings.Even if there had been,I wouldn't have known what was really important or not.I am satisfied with the instruction I received and feel ready to begin "diving within my limits".I came away from my instruction with a clear understanding that diving can be dangerous and you should do your best to try and be ready for things like accidents,malfunctions,etc.,and NOT to dive beyond what you are ready for.

However,It would seem that everyone in the very same class either didn't get it,or chose not to.They are doing dives that I wouldn't even consider at this point.They clearly do not have the experience or training for the types of dives they are doing.This is their choice and must be acceptable to their dive buddy as well.I personally will not dive with them.

Most of the concern here seems to be diving with someone who is not ready or adequately trained.This may put you (as a buddy) in danger.On the other hand,didn't you accept all this when you decided to dive with them?

I think it is the personal responsibility of each individual diver to know their limits AND those of their buddy.If you are not sure,don't dive.The level of training can improve or decline with the times or the location,but who you choose to dive with is entirely up to you.

 

[Guy Alcala]

<snicker>

Denial comes in all forms.

Maybe these students are the laziest and want it done the quickest.

Hi, first time posting in this forum. FWIW, I did the weekend training when I got certified about 2.5 years ago. I would have been bored to tears if the same info had been spread out over 3 weeks (two nights per week), and covering it all was no problem with just friday night and the next two weekends.

<Rant mode on>
Of course, the reason it could be covered in so little time was that the material was so skimpy and dumbed down that a 10-year old of average intelligence could pass it; indeed, that's who it seemed to be aimed at. Actually, IMO opinion as long as my check cleared, they'd be happy to hand my cert card to my next of kin if I drowned during the class.

I'm highly self-motivated, was first in the water at about 18 months old and swimming since I was 4, and had been wanting to get certified ever since I was 10 or so when I got my first mask and snorkel (still have the latter,a simple J-tube) and learned to free-dive, but lots of other equipment-intensive sports had intervened in the meantime: backpacking, X-C Skiing, mountaineering, cycling, sea kayaking etc., much of it (and diving now, too) done solo. So, when I finally got around to getting scuba-certified 37 years later, I seemed to have a different mindset/skillset from the average newbie nowadays, although perhaps more typical of 30 or 40 years ago.

I confess, I was appalled at how low the standards had sunk. I had people in my OW class who could barely dog-paddle 200 yds in the pool and looked terrified while doing it, and these people were planning to dive in the ocean (in Monterey) in gear?:shocked2:

I can remember what the scuba manuals and requirements were like back in the early '70s; SSI and PADI manuals are comic books by comparison. Fortunately, my library had a copy of the 2003 YMCA Scuba manual by Dennis Graver, which was a lot better on physiology, gas planning, free-diving skills etc., and I could get the NOAA diving manual via inter-library loan (I _said_ I was highly self-motivated, especially on matters affecting my health and safety). I understand NAUI also doesn't subscribe to the RSTC standards and insists on more; more important to me is that you should be able to fail the course.

I've since taken AOW, Nitrox, altitude, a separate Nav. speciality, and Rescue. With the exception of Rescue, which was a reasonable introduction to the subject, and Nitrox and altitude (which could easily be taught online), they were jokes. Indeed, the SSI Nav. manual (I actually took a separate PADI nav. class later, but got the SSI manual doing my AOW) contains some major errors on compass use (I taught map and compass and orienteering to Boy Scouts for many years), and I wrote them a letter pointing these out. Hopefully they'll fix it in the next edition, because anyone trying to refresh their memory of how to use a compass from that chapter is in for some trouble.
<Rant mode off>

I realize that there are some instructors that go beyond the standards, and I applaud them. But the problem _is_ the standards of the major for-profit agencies. Clearly, they are designed to graduate the largest number of (marginally competent) divers who will be led around by the nose by a DM in some warm water resort area, once every few years. Since the fatality rate is quite low they are obviously successful at it, and as long as there's no incentive for the agencies to graduate better divers they won't. IMO anyone who comes out of these courses as a competent, self-reliant diver does it in spite of, not because of them.

FWIW, I think that for a course to ensure that a diver is a competent, self-reliant ocean diver, it should be similar to the NOAA basic scientific diver standards: For starters, the swim requirement is 500 yards using free, breast and/or side strokes (only): I'd prefer that it be timed; 25 yd. breath hold underwater swim; 30 minute float. Anyone who can pass that is completely at ease in the water, and takes reasonable care of themselves; don't get me started on the number of morbidly obese divers I've seen, often smoking. The rest of the course is equivalent to a thorough version of OW, AOW, Dry Suit, Rescue and S&R with some scientific stuff thrown in.

I think the typical basic cert. really should be a learner's permit, i.e. you should have to dive with a more experienced person until you gain the skills to function safely on your own. OTOH, I don't want to see scuba police, and am a firm libertarian on people judging risks for themselves.

In any case, none of this is going to happen, which is why I plan to take Fundies as soon as I can afford it; I could actually fail that. And then on to tech.

Guy

 

[gcbryan]

How many on this board were certified since the courses were shortened and how many consider themselves to be decent divers? I would say the answer to both questions is "most".

I think good instructors can turn out good divers in whatever time frame they have and good students can become good divers even with average instructors.