JeffG
Contributor
2 days of classes. 2 days of checkout (no classes there)
Still 2 days.
Keep on dancing
How happy are you with today's level of Diver Education?
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Still 2 days.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
You should know that this is a question on the NAUI exam. Your OW certification is considered a learning permit by NAUI, but to suggest that NAUI instructors across the Board do not require competence is beyond the pale.
But then define "competence". Is the student who just finished their first year of band "competent" to play the Flugle horn? Two years? Three years? Heck, I took flute for 6 years, and I am still incompetent in my own eyes. Somehow, I happened to score "A"s in my music classes. Yet, I can guarantee you'll never hear me play at Carnegie Hall. Playing an instrument was Mom's idea.
So, is competence being able to play Kokopeli to delight yourself and friends, or is it being good enough to play a recital with your local orchestra or say Carnegie Hall?
JeffG
Contributor
siikik
Contributor
I can tell you that both the quality and quantity of education has changed in 20 years. That's based simply on looking at the difference between my books from '87 and my wife's books from this year... I had to wait until she took AOW since that's where NASDS started. Sure, the books are pretty nowadays... but where are the basic skills? Only half a page on Boyle's Law? And heaven forbid you actually do a controlled out-of-air ascent like I did.
Aside from that, I think it is a 50/50... Just like I tell my students... we both have a job. My job is to teach you and your job is to learn. Both sides need to do their part and either can bring the other down. I think that if I taught a OW class, I'd throw the book away.
Ken
Aside from that, I think it is a 50/50... Just like I tell my students... we both have a job. My job is to teach you and your job is to learn. Both sides need to do their part and either can bring the other down. I think that if I taught a OW class, I'd throw the book away.
Ken
LGH
Registered
Point well taken. However, while your argument is true it is easily applicable to all forms of education (not that there is anything wrong with that), and may be a bit too general for the discussion at hand. I believe the original poster was interested in how the agencies offering classes and issuing certificates appear to be doing their work.
It is up to the people issuing certificates to make sure that the students have actually learned and comprehended the class before handing out certification cards. Whether the student is an eager and serious one or just one who hopes to get his little plastic card as quickly and easily as possible shouldn't really factor into the equation: If the student doesn't know (and be able to perform) the basics of safe diving, the student should not receive the little plastic card. That's what it all boils down to, in my opinion.
And, as in all education, a good instructor needs to be able to quickly identify which students aren't really up to it. While there is money in certifying people, an instructor must be able to deny a student the certificate on the grounds of the student not achieving the required theoretical or practical skills. Whether that means less cash in the wallet for next weekend or not.
Buoyant1
Contributor
One of the things I found out when I took my OW class is that "No one taught me HOW TO DIVE!" They taught me pretty much how not to kill myself, but they didn't teach me how to dive, No fin kicks (standard flutter kick was assumed) No "trim" training, weighting was covered, but not emphasized, as was neutral buoyancy and how to maintain it. I had to pretty much learn all of those things on my own, by diving and asking questions. (and I still am) I was one of those that by the time I went for AOW (after 50 something dives) I had done most of what that course taught. In fact, the instructor knew I have been deep many times before, so he sent me down first, and had me lead the dive to the deeper part (skills on a 65 ft. platform, remainder of dive went to about 90 feet)
I feel as though I'm a COMPETANT diver, but none of that competency came from any of the courses. Maybe the question should be turned around and it should be asked, "What do the agencies expect to accomplish with their education model?" Are they looking to train people to dive, train people just enough so as to not kill themselves, or get people certified so they either continue with their education (i.e. those of us that are hard core about the sport) or get people certified so they can do more than just golf on a vacation?
GRANTED! I've seen some instructors that take the course material as it's given to them, and take the courses further, to MAKE better divers, but by the same token, I've seen classes where the instructors fill out the diver's log books to make sure they get them through. Thankfully, I've been surrounded by people that are serious about diving, and aren't afraid to give me constructive criticism when necessary, it's making ME a better diver. PADI certified me and gave me the license to dive, I learned more because I wanted to learn more.
So to answer the original question? It depends on what you are seeking.
I feel as though I'm a COMPETANT diver, but none of that competency came from any of the courses. Maybe the question should be turned around and it should be asked, "What do the agencies expect to accomplish with their education model?" Are they looking to train people to dive, train people just enough so as to not kill themselves, or get people certified so they either continue with their education (i.e. those of us that are hard core about the sport) or get people certified so they can do more than just golf on a vacation?
GRANTED! I've seen some instructors that take the course material as it's given to them, and take the courses further, to MAKE better divers, but by the same token, I've seen classes where the instructors fill out the diver's log books to make sure they get them through. Thankfully, I've been surrounded by people that are serious about diving, and aren't afraid to give me constructive criticism when necessary, it's making ME a better diver. PADI certified me and gave me the license to dive, I learned more because I wanted to learn more.
So to answer the original question? It depends on what you are seeking.
That wasn't quite what I had in mind. I think a "standard" course usually involves something like 5x in a pool and 4x in OW for a total combined bottom time of something around 7 hours. Extending that by 3 hours (for a total of 10) isn't a lot more but would (a) give the instructor a fair amount of free time to fine tune things and (b) it would level the playing field between those who want to deliver quality and those who want to cut corners.
As it is, standards give a lot of wiggle room and some instructors/shops/resorts are offering the *same* OW card as their more ... dedicated competitors but their students don't spend anywhere near 7 hours in the water and NONE of that time neutrally buoyant.
So to me, adding a minimum bottom time and minimum time neutrally buoyant (ie swimming around) would be a good way to level the playing field and cut off the biggest boobs from their air supply, as it were.
But ok, that's academic .... Frankly for some instructors, 200 hours wouldn't be enough to get the same results that others might manage in 10 or 12. There's a HUGE range of effectiveness and efficiency from one instructor to the next.
R..
JeffG
Contributor
I am not familiar with those classes.
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