How many dives before solo diving, part II

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's official... all the fun has been beat out of this thread...

After knowing a couple people who killed themselves by jumping into solo diving too soon, I guess I just don't consider it much fun reading about people who go that route straight outta OW class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

After knowing a couple people who killed themselves by jumping into solo diving too soon, I guess I just don't consider it much fun reading about people who go that route straight outta OW class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Understood... I would prefer to see them get more experience too. But, the Solo Diver Fourm is supposed to be a place to talk about solo diving. It is possible to talk and discourage at the same time where necessary. However, it seems lately every post gets slammed with the 'you're gonna die' rhetoric. It's quickly becoming the Anti-Solo Diver forum.

 

[DaleC]

Open Water (Buddy) diving allows you to make a lot of mistakes before it kills you. It is a Low Risk activity. For instance, the following is a 'chain' of mistakes:
Mistake #1: You run out of air. Solution - share air with buddy, ascend. Live.
Mistake #2: You are separated from buddy. Solution - conduct CESA to surface.
Mistake #3: You are too deep to CESA. No solution - drown. Hope someone resucitates you.

Solo diving reduces the error chain before fatality. It increases risk.

More risk + more mistakes = more deaths.

Additional diver training and experience reduces likelihood of mistakes. It is the natural way to balance the risk-mistake equation.

So... why do some people seem incredulous that it is recommended that divers gain more experience before embarking into more high-risk activities?

I understand where you are coming from here but I think this could be a false assumption to some degree.

In an attempt to capture the most potential customers possible, most agencies OW divers are taught that diving is overall a very safe activity and that there is even more safety within the buddy system. Imagine the new divers surprise then when they learn that diving can in fact at times be quite unsafe and that the buddy system is very unsafe (because so much dependance is placed upon it) when/if the buddy teams skills/application are poor; sometimes in situations completely beyond the compliant divers control.

Solo diving on the other hand, is fraught with admonitions of its danger and the need for the correct mindset/equipment/skillsets. With any exposure to outside opinions, the solo diver soon understands that the activity comes with some increased risk, what those risks are specifically, and is implored to adopt sound diving priciples.

When viewed this way, I could see solo diving as being more safe than the buddy system as it is currently practiced in many parts of the world.

but again, I understand your sentiments as they were meant.

It isn't so much the mistakes that'll bite you when you're solo as it is the need for help with no one around, whether that need flows from a mistake or not. Certainly there are circumstances where a buddy is more a liability than an asset. Instructors frequently dive that way.
But there are "no-mistake" circumstances where solo is a death sentence, and it is this additional risk that solo divers must accept, or they are deluding themselves in their assessment of their safety.
In general, no matter how competent a diver you may be (Wes Skiles is a recent case-in-point), any debilitating event - stroke, heart attack, injury, entrapment, seizure, etc. - while solo diving results in drowning and death, while the same event with a buddy may or may not kill you, because a buddy may be able to transport you to life-saving assistance before you die... when you can not do it alone. To think "it'll never happen to me" is not an acceptable or accurate assessment of this additional risk to solo diving. It's just a part of solo diving and those of us who do choose to dive solo from time to time must consciously accept that risk every time we do it, or we're living in fantasy land.
Rick

I fully agree with this. The "medical event" is the one fastball that the solo diver cannot prepare themselves against. If it occurs, you are most probably dead. I rationalize this risk personally by considering that most people who suffer such medical events as MI's or CVA's in the water usually die of that event regardless of a buddies intervention or not. Statistically one stands a better chance with a buddy but in reading the A&I accounts and following local events, it seems not.

 

[SeaYoda]

I am one of those that went solo before dive 25. Before I went solo I had several exciting learning experiences in which I had to be the lead diver (those in trouble had more dives and experience than me). My road to solo as I do it today was not reckless or uninformed. I soaked up all the information I could find on the subject. My first dives were kept to less than 30' with a pony, two forms of cutting devices, in clear warm water that I had snorkeled for years and dived a couple times after certification. I proceeded to learn and practice more skills like doffing and donning gear solo. I gradually increased complexity of the dives and made several gear changes. Between my first solo dive and now have I learned anything - yes much. The question is if I knew enough to solo when I did. The answer is yes. Was I ready to dive down to 130' in zero viz cold water - no. One can be sufficiently equipped to dive the lowest risk levels of solo rather quickly. The real problem is what has already been stated, overconfidence.

The current learning system for solo is based on arbitrary numbers of dives and classes taken. We need to base the availability of classes on observed behavior. Have you ever seen someone with a c-card that didn't have the ability to perform the basic skills, even having a buddy? The opposite can be true as well. Some folks are ready before 100 dives to learn solo. Notice I said learn. I had to do it on my own - I would have preferred a course but I couldn't take it until dive 100. I didn't just put on the cowboy hat and jump into solo in the face of the risks. I did the homework on my own. I also limited the amount of risk and expanded experience slowly.

I don't encourage anyone to follow my foosteps because I can't guarantee your dedication to knowledge or willingness to limit risk. Everyone is different and I don't want you to die because it worked for me. I would just like to see training change to benefit us all with all our differences.

The most experienced diver with a gozillion dives under his belt has not encountered all the things that may go wrong on a dive. When divers and instructors brag that they know enough to be safe now it bothers me. I continue to read what other's experience both solo and buddy and look for new literature all the time. I'm not ever going to be finished learning. I was and still am very limited in what solo diving I do. As I learn about risks I try to find ways to mitigate them. In any of my diving I may encounter something that I have not even thought about - may God give me the strength and wisdom to handle it.

Is the saying true, There are no old, bold divers?

 

[Bob DBF]

The problem with "how many dives before solo" is that the gear is too good, the divers are not proficient swimmers and freedivers, and many people believe that they are not responsible for their own actions.

My dad was always interested in technical gear and bought a set of dive gear and a book. I was interested and tagged along. Other than practice buddy breathing all dives were solo. He moved on to other interests and I continued diving. I did run across some other divers later and dove with them on occasion but continued diving solo.

State of the art was a double hose regulator, steel 72 with a J valve and a horse collar flotation device (not a BC). Running out of air was a regular occurrence and if the J valve was in the wrong position you were really out of air. Diving was not a sport to be taken lightly and divers were considered nuts.

When I finally got certified the class taught proper buddy techniques but there was not the emphasis on never dive solo I hear today. It could be that "back in the day" they gave you all the information in the OW class to make your own decision, of course the class was longer.


Bob
----------------------------
I may be old but I’m not dead yet.

 

[scuba=dude]

Understood... I would prefer to see them get more experience too. But, the Solo Diver Fourm is supposed to be a place to talk about solo diving. It is possible to talk and discourage at the same time where necessary. However, it seems lately every post gets slammed with the 'you're gonna die' rhetoric. It's quickly becoming the Anti-Solo Diver forum.

Ya that's right! Can't say it better if I tryed!

 

[drbill]

As I mentioned earlier, I think the most important criterion for determining if one is "ready" to go solo is the one many people (especially new divers) have little to no basis for knowing... "How do I react to unexpected emergency situations?"

In the early years my solo diving was largely due to lack of equipment rather than buddies. When you have but one set of gear and it is shared among several people... and that gear does not include an octopus or an SPG... it is rather difficult to go down as a team (one could buddy breathe as we did back then). Of course these early dives were mostly shallow and in freshwater.

I learned to really enjoy solo diving after I'd built up a reasonable level of experience. I had an incident or two where I could evaluate my response to emergencies. The first was on a 90 ft dive. My student and I had pulled tanks off the "filled" rack. The topside pressure gauge was missing and back then we didn't have SPGs so we had to assume the tanks had been properly filled and put on the correct rack. Shortly after we descended to 90 ft, breathing became difficult and we both reached to pull our J-valve rods only to find they were already down. Gulp. There was enough air left in my tank to allow me to ascend with my student by buddy breathing.

Although I usually dove with my high school students during the 70s, some might consider that diving solo. However, there were several students who despite their youth were pretty experienced divers. During summer I was often the only male on campus since we sub-leased to a girl's camp. That left no one to dive with (back in the days when SCUBA was largely a "manly" sport... thank goodness that has changed).

Much later, some of my solo diving involved risks that I would not take another diver on (except for my regular buddies). While filming for an episode on "deep ecology" (150 to 200 ft) I would always dive solo as I wasn't willing to assume responsibility for another person's life. I was willing to assume the risk for myself, and made sure my family knew that were something to happen it was my fault and not that of the dive shop or its staff off whose boat I dove.

As I've said (and will repeat here for emphasis), I will not advocate solo diving for anyone else. There are very few divers for whom I know their response to emergencies so I'm not qualified to do so. The few regular buddies whose response I do know (mostly instructors) are smart enough and experienced enough to make their own decisions regarding solo.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Understood... I would prefer to see them get more experience too. But, the Solo Diver Fourm is supposed to be a place to talk about solo diving. It is possible to talk and discourage at the same time where necessary. However, it seems lately every post gets slammed with the 'you're gonna die' rhetoric. It's quickly becoming the Anti-Solo Diver forum.

Talking about solo diving to a newly OW'd diver is like talking about sex to a 10-year old. It all sounds very exciting, but in reality they don't have a clue what you're talking about ... and still won't even after you get done explaining it to 'em ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[scuba=dude]

Come on....really you can say the same thing about any tec thred........If some new-be is going to base there diving around some thing they read at lest let them read some real info about the typ of diving that turns them on.....rather then keeping it all in the dark and keeping it all a dark mistery.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Come on....really you can say the same thing about any tec thred........If some new-be is going to base there diving around some thing they read at lest let them read some real info about the typ of diving that turns them on.....rather then keeping it all in the dark and keeping it all a dark mistery.

There's no mystery about it ... I just don't care to promote irresponsible diving practices.

And before you accuse me again ... I got nothing against solo diving. I go solo diving regularly. I just happen to believe that doing it straight out of OW is irresponsible.

That IS real info about solo diving ... it's just real info you don't want to hear.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)