How Rigorous Should Training Be?

[LiteHedded]

hahahah
yea I'll tell you about him. he doesn't dive anymore

 

[The Chairman]

Still cant believe Pete pulled that persons post

I don't think I was the one to pull it. If I did, I don't recall that.

 

[Peter Guy]

A few musing questions since this thread has wandered so much already:

a. Why do ALL threads which touch on instruction end up with "I don't understand why 'their' instruction is so bad?" or some variation thereof?

b. Do "real" dry cavers complain as much about "the other guys who don't 'do it right'" as cave divers?

c. I just hope nobody here ever sees me diving in a cave because I couldn't take the criticism and I took the "instant instruction" route from an instructor who deliberately didn't teach a "rigorous" class because he believes Cave Diving should be fun and it is counter-productive to stress and fatigue the student.

 

[The Chairman]

Dang Peter... great questions!

We all talk about "personal limits", but we harp on training that would possibly go beyond those limits.

Case in point: Side Mounting. I have been told that I would be expected to go into a VERY tight restriction where I would have to remove my tanks, etc. I have no desire to do that as my desire to sidemount comes from physical limitations from ankle surgery.

 

[LiteHedded]

A few musing questions since this thread has wandered so much already:

a. Why do ALL threads which touch on instruction end up with "I don't understand why 'their' instruction is so bad?" or some variation thereof?

b. Do "real" dry cavers complain as much about "the other guys who don't 'do it right'" as cave divers?

c. I just hope nobody here ever sees me diving in a cave because I couldn't take the criticism and I took the "instant instruction" route from an instructor who deliberately didn't teach a "rigorous" class because he believes Cave Diving should be fun and it is counter-productive to stress and fatigue the student.

I think a class can be rigorous and fun at the same time. and my complaints aren't about divers who aren't 'pretty' in the water but divers who are dangerous. aesthetics doesn't enter into it. 'doing it right' doesn't either.

I know a lot of sidemount/no-mount/CCR etc. divers who I consider fantastic cave divers.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

A few musing questions since this thread has wandered so much already:

a. Why do ALL threads which touch on instruction end up with "I don't understand why 'their' instruction is so bad?" or some variation thereof?

b. Do "real" dry cavers complain as much about "the other guys who don't 'do it right'" as cave divers?

c. I just hope nobody here ever sees me diving in a cave because I couldn't take the criticism and I took the "instant instruction" route from an instructor who deliberately didn't teach a "rigorous" class because he believes Cave Diving should be fun and it is counter-productive to stress and fatigue the student.

The answer is yes. I know some pretty serious dry cavers that are VERY demanding and will voice their concerns when someone is doing something that can permanently damage a cave or injure a team member.

 

[The Chairman]

The answer is yes.

Indeed, one of the last excursions I went on to a dry cave in Ocala had the leader castigate me time and time again. My shoes were wrong, I was too fat, I brought a hiking pole... Most of these had to do with possible harm that could be done to the cave and while I could understand and change many of the things, I was not impressed with the delivery. Ten minutes into the cave, and I said goodbye to the group and returned. The cave was cool, the incessant diatribe was def not. Mind you, the cave had already been destroyed, not by carelessness but by vandalism.

After they came back out (three hours later), the leader tried to excuse his poor behavior. My response was not gentle. I would have left earlier if I didn't have riders who had continued. In reality, there are cave Nazis everywhere. I certainly don't feel that anyone in this thread amounts to such, but we do need to be sure that we never get to that point.

Edit: Actually, I don't think I have tried to do a dry cave since. There was so much wrong with that guy's mentality, that I have not cared to go back and try.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Indeed, one of the last excursions I went on to a dry cave in Ocala had the leader castigate me time and time again. My shoes were wrong, I was too fat, I brought a hiking pole... Most of these had to do with possible harm that could be done to the cave and while I could understand and change many of the things, I was not impressed with the delivery. Ten minutes into the cave, and I said goodbye to the group and returned. The cave was cool, the incessant diatribe was def not. Mind you, the cave had already been destroyed, not by carelessness but by vandalism.

After they came back out (three hours later), the leader tried to excuse his poor behavior. My response was not gentle. I would have left earlier if I didn't have riders who had continued. In reality, there are cave Nazis everywhere. I certainly don't feel that anyone in this thread amounts to such, but we do need to be sure that we never get to that point.

Exactly. I can be a cave nazi. I like what Peter said about fun, im all for fun. Have several people that like diving wth me because I think it should be fun. However everyone out there diving caves knows their limits on wheter they can do a dive without damaging the cave. Those that go ahead and cause damage are reckless and irresponsible. Our bubbles do enough damage, there doesnt need to be anymore. If you dont think you can get through a passage wthout causing damage then go another route, its an easy concept.

 

[The Chairman]

Exactly. I can be a cave nazi.

Actually, you are far too reasonable to be one.

I'm like Lynn: My concept of how I should dive far exceeds my actual skill. That doesn't mean my skills are that "bad" as much as it means that I am super aware of how I want/need to improve. indeed, there are some who feel that they have arrived, and it's obvious that my skill set exceeds theirs.

I look at any passage and discern whether I am up to the challenge. That being said, I have NEVER seen someone wiggle into a no-mount passage that did not cause some damage. I'm not going to follow them there, but I do see the damage from the outside.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Actually, you are far too reasonable to be one.

I'm like Lynn: My concept of how I should dive far exceeds my actual skill. That doesn't mean my skills are that "bad" as much as it means that I am super aware of how I want/need to improve. indeed, there are some who feel that they have arrived, and it's obvious that my skill set exceeds theirs.

I look at any passage and discern whether I am up to the challenge. That being said, I have NEVER seen someone wiggle into a no-mount passage that did not cause some damage. I'm not going to follow them there, but I do see the damage from the outside.

I agree, but most people will never see those scuff marks. The ones ay places like JB, where the celing is 7 to 10ft tall and beat to hell and back is different. Or you see huge scooter marks where people didnt do enough training time and dont seem to manage the multi-tasking required to ride one in a cave.