how to? o2 cleaning tank valves

[ffdiver]

Something is O2 clean or not. This scuba industry nonsense of "nitrox" clean is ridiculous. There is no such thing as 40% O2 cleaning products or mostly O2 safe lubricant.

the tank and valve need to be O2 clean if it sees high pressure O2.

If you are only putting in banked Nitrox or air, you don't need to O2 clean it.

 

[Scared Silly]

Wow.. you seem very sure of yourself.

Do you want me to post a pic of my VIP stickers? There are two holes available to punch. One says something like: Clean for "premix oxygen content 22-40%". The other says: "tank and valve cleaned for o2 service".

Whether you like it or not.. banked nitrox blends at around 29-32% are pretty common in FL and I have not encountered any shop that required cleaning for 100% o2 when filling from banked gas below 40%.

If you have some information that shows this is proven to be an unsafe practice, please share your source.

Sure post them up and we can dissect them to educate people on how they do not meet the industry standards.

In the mean time read this: Why does Luxfer require cleaning for oxygen concentrations above 23.5%?

That is the industry standard. When it comes to cylinders shops like to make up lots of crap. But it is their butt and business that will be hung out if there is ever an issue. As insurance companies like to find reasons not to pay out.

Something is O2 clean or not. This scuba industry nonsense of "nitrox" clean is ridiculous. There is no such thing as 40% O2 cleaning products or mostly O2 safe lubricant.

the tank and valve need to be O2 clean if it sees high pressure O2.

If you are only putting in banked Nitrox or air, you don't need to O2 clean it.

Do you realize the last sentence of your post does not follow the industry standard. Read the above by Luxfer.


Finally, this issue gets debated ad-nausium so for those who get banked NITROX fills without O2 cleaning their cylinders do some research and present an industry standard rather than anecdotal evidence. That said if the scuba industry wanted to work with the gas and other regulatory industries to come up with a real 40% rule then they should.

 

[Caveeagle]

Sure post them up and we can dissect them to educate people on how they do not meet the industry standards.

In the mean time read this: Why does Luxfer require cleaning for oxygen concentrations above 23.5%?

That is the industry standard. When it comes to cylinders shops like to make up lots of crap. Kind of like the 20 year rule for aluminum cylinders.



Do you realize the last sentence of your post does not follow the industry standard. Read the above by Luxfer.

OK, it seems to me that you are arguing that your definition of "industry standard" as defined by Luxfer, the USCGA? and the United Nations.. Right? And that somehow they have a better handle on this than OSHA? Who (in my experience) tends to take a very conservative line on issues of safety.

I read nothing on the linked Luxfer site that makes me feel accountable to your definition of "industry standard".

I will have to search for it now, but I am pretty sure I remember one other SCUBA tank manufacturer (or distributor) that has the "safe to 40%") noted in their specs. I think it was either Faber or Blue Steel.

I have discussed this with at least one local shop that I am VERY comfortable with and specifically asked how they treat a air/nitrox tank differently than a tank prepped for 100% o2. For the most part, it seems that both tanks/valves get cleaned with o2 compatible cleaner, and o2 compatible O-rings and lube. It just seems that a little extra care (and co$t) are applied to 100% tanks. From memory, they get extra care in ultrasonic cleaning, and a higher grade o-ring.

I think it also has to do with how tanks are handled after prepping. Most tanks around my home area get banked nitrox, and sometimes air fills, but never see 100% 02 from partial pressure blending. The only tanks I have seen routinely filled with 100% are deco and ccr bottles. So it makes sense that they would get a little more TLC.

On another note. Last time I was down at Blue Heron Bridge, a group parked near us had several tanks sitting out being bled to empty. I assume this was to prep them for a PP nitrox fill. I just think this is wasteful and seems like a great way to allow contaminants back into a tank with no pressure. Not to mention excessive wear on the tanks from fast drain and then s fill from empty.

 

[Scared Silly]

It is not my definition rather a pointer to the industry standards. That said I find it funny you note OSHA being conservative and yet their standards except for the one for commercial applications (and does not apply to recreational scuba) are similar to the reset.

As for Blue Steel they note:

• Cylinders Oxygen cleaned for Nitrox use

Blue Steel Scuba - Faber Cylinders

Nitrox by is definition contains N2, 02, and a few other trace gases. But 90% O2, 10% N2 is nitrox.

I have also seen the following statement which probably what you are referring to: Faber steel cylinders are cleaned at the factory for oxygen-enriched service up to 40% pre-blended nitrox.

Which IMHO is a CYA statement because the while the cylinders are cleaned for oxygen-enriched service there is a specific limit on the gas. Which is the opposite of what you are trying to imply.

 

[Caveeagle]

It is not my definition rather a pointer to the industry standards. That said I find it funny you note OSHA being conservative and yet their standards except for the one for commercial applications (and does not apply to recreational scuba) are similar to the reset.

As for Blue Steel they note:

• Cylinders Oxygen cleaned for Nitrox use

Blue Steel Scuba - Faber Cylinders

I have also seen the following statement which probably what you are referring to: Faber steel cylinders are cleaned at the factory for oxygen-enriched service up to 40% pre-blended nitrox.

Which IMHO is a CYA statement because the while the cylinders are cleaned for oxygen-enriched service there is a specific limit on the gas. Which is the opposite of what you are trying to imply.

I don't see how that is contrary to my point of view on this. In fact I recently purchased a brand new set of faber HP100s and my shop owner installed a brand new set of blue steel valves on said tanks using tribolube o2 compatible lube. The valves and lube are rated for 100%, but the tanks come new rated for 40%. The VIP sticker in this case is punched for 21-40% service because I don't need PP blending and the tank maker will back it up for 40% (your CYA factor).

I just don't see your problem with this. Yea, we could break out the UV light and the tanks are probably plenty clean for 100% PP blending. But I can see why a) I don't want to pay for the extra step of cleaning just for a hole punch I will not use. ...and ... b) the shop does not want to certify the tank for 100% if they have not taken the step to clean (or re-clean) it.

So the "up to 40%" rating seems to make perfect sense to me. I get to use these tanks for air or banked nitrox without paying for the extra up-charge. And the tank is clearly marked that it should not be used for 100%.

Where is the problem.

 

[djdalite]

to clear things up

im only using EANx up to 40% and the place i fill at banks nitrox, unless i request a special mix then they would partial blend, which i never really using anything higher than 34% - they mostly bank 32

I think the whole nitrox 02 clean thing is BS anyway, it only takes the tiniest contaminated surface to make the entire thing not o2 clean and its mostly a way for shops to make a little extra cash. Also since i just paid them to o2 clean my tanks and valves (withing the last 20days) i dont really want to pay them to o2 clean the newer din valves i just bought off of craigslist. They look brand new, there the Thermo K valves, not dirty in anyway and have been sealed in a ziplock.

So my thing was, after i run through whats in my tanks i would just put the new valves in. there not going to know the difference (as bad as that sounds).

i dont want to be shady or hurt anyone in the process, i just dont like throwing my money away

*now that i think about, they already mentioned i dont need them o2 clean to fill with them, they mostly do it so if i go somewhere else down south FL i wont have any problems with my vip sticker.

 

[Caveeagle]

*now that i think about, they already mentioned i dont need them o2 clean to fill with them, they mostly do it so if i go somewhere else down south FL i wont have any problems with my vip sticker.

So for your banked nitrox fills, you will be ok. The problem is, you have no idea what kind of lube was used on those valves. Now I don't know anyone that doesn't use o2 compatible lube, but there are still corners of the SCUBA world where nitrox and o2 are still uncommon. Even if the risk of an accident was .5%, do you want to be responsible for a tank that blows up?

Does your shop have a UV light? If you were nearby, I would just have you drop by and we could run them through my US cleaner and have you all set.

FWIW, I think the risk of o2 explosions is real. Its just how the dive industry is applying the standards that is sort of "BS". Kind of like the annual reg service and VIP stickers. They are padding the dollars where they can in an industry where its tough to balance the books.

 

[rjack321]

Does your shop have a UV light? If you were nearby, I would just have you drop by and we could run them through my US cleaner and have you all set.

Your UV light is worthless. Not all incompatible materials will fluoresce and even the ones that do are unlikely to be seen unless its gross contamination.

FWIW, I think the risk of o2 explosions is real.

Not for 32% nitrox fills (or anything else <40%), hence the bending of the CGA 23.5% rule by the scuba industry - in general.

 

[Scared Silly]

I don't see how that is contrary to my point of view on this. In fact I recently purchased a brand new set of faber HP100s and my shop owner installed a brand new set of blue steel valves on said tanks using tribolube o2 compatible lube. The valves and lube are rated for 100%, but the tanks come new rated for 40%. The VIP sticker in this case is punched for 21-40% service because I don't need PP blending and the tank maker will back it up for 40% (your CYA factor).

I just don't see your problem with this. Yea, we could break out the UV light and the tanks are probably plenty clean for 100% PP blending. But I can see why a) I don't want to pay for the extra step of cleaning just for a hole punch I will not use. ...and ... b) the shop does not want to certify the tank for 100% if they have not taken the step to clean (or re-clean) it.

So the "up to 40%" rating seems to make perfect sense to me. I get to use these tanks for air or banked nitrox without paying for the extra up-charge. And the tank is clearly marked that it should not be used for 100%.

Where is the problem.

The problem is that there are two levels within the industry - air service and O2 service. Some dive shops are trying to carve out a third without any standard using anecdotal evidence. A VIP sticker that says acceptable 21%-40% is really meaningless because there is no standard behind it. Your shop may clean to near O2 service standards but another shop may not. Thus the problem.

I think the whole nitrox 02 clean thing is BS anyway, it only takes the tiniest contaminated surface to make the entire thing not o2 clean and its mostly a way for shops to make a little extra cash. Also since i just paid them to o2 clean my tanks and valves (withing the last 20days) i dont really want to pay them to o2 clean the newer din valves i just bought off of craigslist. They look brand new, there the Thermo K valves, not dirty in anyway and have been sealed in a ziplock.

So my thing was, after i run through whats in my tanks i would just put the new valves in. there not going to know the difference (as bad as that sounds).

i dont want to be shady or hurt anyone in the process, i just dont like throwing my money away

*now that i think about, they already mentioned i dont need them o2 clean to fill with them, they mostly do it so if i go somewhere else down south FL i wont have any problems with my vip sticker.

Yer try to save money at someone else's expensive and possibly more if your valves contain crap that cause a fill fire/explosion. You bought something off Craigslist that you really have no idea of their history. The person selling them cat could have pissed on them or they could have been sprayed by wd-40 to clean them up.

I have O2 clean cylinders and values and after usage they may no longer be O2 clean because a whole host of reasons. However, I know their usage history and can determine when they should be cleaned again. You do not with those valves.

 

[Caveeagle]

Not for 32% nitrox fills (or anything else <40%), hence the bending of the CGA 23.5% rule by the scuba industry - in general.

That was my point. The risk is real if you are filling with 100% o2 for partial pressure blending. (or for any reason)