"I'm so conservative..."

[tursiops]

There is nothing "wrong" with the computer but with the divers understanding. The use of a "safe profile" is worth nothing without safe diving practises along with it.

Unfortunately this diver would probably have had a similar experience with most computers - he didn't RTFM (Read The F%^$^"! Manual). He sounds like he would have potentially done the same on any model of computer by picking a conservative profile then going into deco and hoping everything would be ok gas wise. Sounds like an exhibition case of normalisation of deviance. The lack of gas planning speaks volumes to me.

It doesn't take "tech" gear to make a diver unsafe - it is down to the mindset of the diver.

^^^This^^^
It is fundamental, if using a computer, to know if you have exceeded NDL. They all tell you that, and then they all go into deco mode.
The only thing special about the Shearwater is that -- unlike most -- it does not lock you out for 24-48h if you do something really stupid, assuming you are still functional/alive to do something after having been really stupid.

 

[Bob DBF]

Unfortunately this diver would probably have had a similar experience with most computers - he didn't RTFM (Read The F%^$^"! Manual).

Assuming facts not in evidence, reading the manual is not necessarily understanding how the computer works, or anything about decompression. That manual probably doesn't even cover the requirements of mitigating the dangers of being in deco.

He sounds like he would have potentially done the same on any model of computer by picking a conservative profile then going into deco and hoping everything would be ok gas wise. Sounds like an exhibition case of normalisation of deviance. The lack of gas planning speaks volumes to me.

The rec computer manuals start by telling you the computer is not designed for deco diving and not to go into deco. This would be in opposition to a computer made for deco diving. The diver would be working on the assumption that the tech computer would keep him safe in deco which is not normalization of deviance, but ignorance.


Bob

 

[Neilwood]

Assuming facts not in evidence, reading the manual is not necessarily understanding how the computer works, or anything about decompression. That manual probably doesn't even cover the requirements of mitigating the dangers of being in deco.

The rec computer manuals start by telling you the computer is not designed for deco diving and not to go into deco. This would be in opposition to a computer made for deco diving. The diver would be working on the assumption that the tech computer would keep him safe in deco which is not normalization of deviance, but ignorance.

Bob

The problem in this case does not appear to be the fact that he was in deco (he was doing the deco the computer added) but the fact that he didn't plan for it by having additional gas in recognition of the fact of the deco and the now mandatory stop. He appears to have planned his gas on the basis of direct ascent to surface (@boulderjohn can confirm this?) and not having a "SHTF" contingency.

As @tursiops comments - all the tech computer does (in reality) by comparison with a purely recreational computer is not lock you out for doing stupid things.

The mindset of the diver is the problem (he blindly goes into deco without understanding it and the dangers) but not the technology (all computers will do "deco" in some shape or form).

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Computers often result in a mindset that can be dangerous! Unfortunately we live in a diving culture that pushes consumerism over education and there are agencies that take a lot of pride that they removed tables and started training divers on computers from day one! Once we start creating divers who "think through the computer" rather than use a computer to"advance their thought," serious crap can happen.

In recreational diving community there is this mindset "what is the best dive computer?" You can scroll through the boards and see how many people ask this question. This mindset is compounded by the idea that the more expensive a dive computer is the better or closer to the "best" and this results in some technical diving computers ending up in the hands of recreational divers. These tech computers are constantly bouncing the question back to the user in terms of algorithms and gradients etc and in doing so they are also bounding the liability and risk back to the user as well. Unless you know what you are doing, you can generate some crazy dive profiles and they will be the fault of your own doing but we are part of a dive culture that suggests "no need to think. Computer is doing that for you!"

It is not just technical computers in the hands of recreational divers that are the problem. A friend of mine got bent this December while following her recreational computer. If you have a recreational computer, you will be looking at the reverse countdown to your NDL as the end of the dive. At some point you will reach Zero on your NDL limit and then back to ONE...TWO...THREE! These are no longer the time available to you but decompression time you must observe before exiting. She mistook the generated decompression stops as the NDL limit because it appears in the same sort of box. She accumulated serious decompression time which she violated because of "OH MY GOD! I HAVE OVERSTAYED MY LIMITS!!!"

Multiple trips to the chamber and the treatment is still going on.

 

[gcarter]

This type of scenario begs the question, is it wise to put advanced tec computers in the hands of beginning recreational divers that don’t necessarily have the experience and knowledge to understand what they’re their using and getting in to?
As an aside, I see a lot of hyping of the Shearwater products on this site to beginning divers. Maybe a little more thought needs to be put into what is being constantly recommended.

Don't blame the tool.

I have been using a Petrel for over 100 dives now and it has never come out of rec mode other than to play with it to see the screens. I dive with a number of people who also use Shearwater or other advanced computers and do not do technical dives.

If someone is not going to RTFM and follow it, it doesn't matter what kind of tool you give them. Someone who thinks 5 - 10 minutes of deco (or more) is no big deal is unlikely to think differently just because they use a more rec oriented computer.

 

[gcarter]

Gap in education? It doesn’t seem like he was purposely cavalier but rather, it appears he did not understand what recreational no decompression diving was?

I hope people don’t make assumptions about us based on our equipment, but I know it happens because it did several times already. And I’m not liking it. Admittedly, my husband and I are all decked out in what appear to be “advanced/cave/tech” equipment, because I got all my gear buying recommendations and info about equipment here on SB. And it heavily skews towards the advanced side. Yup, harness and wing, long hose configuration, Shearwater. Oftentimes people ask us if we’re “very experienced “ or “been diving a long time”. I quickly say “no” because I do not want anyone getting the wrong idea. I have had so many comments about our gear. It bothers me, this gap between what our equipment is telling the world about us and the truth. Enough that I considered getting rid of my bc and long hose, but not my Perdix (hehe, it’s just too wonderful).

We have used our Perdix on recreational air/Nitrox modes only and would have no business or interest in the tech modes, just in case anyone was wondering.

Who cares if they get the wrong idea so long as you are a) using the gear you want to use / are comfortable with and b) are diving within the limits of your training, experience and comfort?

What they think of your gear has no bearing on anything.

Anyone who assumes a level of experience that gaps with reality simply on the basis of your gear is not someone whose opinion matters IMO - they clearly don't know enough about anything to be passing judgement.

 

[TMHeimer]

I agree with Capt. S about the "mindset". Seems this guy was doing stuff I would never consider (though usually my diving is shallow enough to leave the computer home). When I do dive deeper, I have never even looked at how to set my computer to be conservative. I also set our house clocks to the right time, not 5 minutes fast so I'm never late, etc. I trust that I can read what my DC says and act accordingly. I'm also one of those guys who knows the table limits on Air by heart, since my dives are almost always square profiles. Thus the dive watch goes with me too.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Don't blame the tool.

I have been using a Petrel for over 100 dives now and it has never come out of rec mode other than to play with it to see the screens. I dive with a number of people who also use Shearwater or other advanced computers and do not do technical dives.

If someone is not going to RTFM and follow it, it doesn't matter what kind of tool you give them. Someone who thinks 5 - 10 minutes of deco (or more) is no big deal is unlikely to think differently just because they use a more rec oriented computer.

I partly blame the tool, but I also blame the current computer culture, and I also blame the training, and lastly the internet culture associated with the bombardment of random information of all different styles and levels of diving from beginner all the way up to extremely advanced technical diving, and It’s all thrown into the same soup.
It’s a little troubling to me when I see people in the considering diving forum or new diver forum ask about computers and gear, and the anwers they get are get a Petrel or Perdix, and you need to be fully DIR configured with BPW (and all the trimmings) because you might want to use doubles and tech dive someday with stage bottles, etc. Oh yeah, and fon’t forget about sidemount!

Mostly I blame initial training based on what I’ve read so far. If this is the current climate of training where the infomation is that sparse and what is being taught is just to follow your computer because it does a lot better job than you can, then at least do some thorough teaching about all the computers and everything they can do. At this point since there are very advanced tech computers out there that ARE being recommended on a regular basis to newbies on these forums by people and maybe a few techies who “know everything”, if you’re going to recommend that stuff then at least realize who you’re dealing with and recommended with a little more discretion. It’s easy to call people idiots and ignoramuses, but is that really fair? Maybe they just don’t know. Almost TMI as far as what impressionate new divers can get exposed to, when that initial exposure should have been their initial training.
The internet is a powerfull tool and I think a little responsibility needs to be taken instead of just ripping on people calling incompetent idiots and you can’t fix stupid when this type of stuff happens.
The guys history really should be examined.
That’s all.

 

[MichaelMc]

I hope people don’t make assumptions about us based on our equipment, but I know it happens because it did several times already. And I’m not liking it. ... Yup, harness and wing, long hose configuration, Shearwater. Oftentimes people ask us if we’re “very experienced “ or “been diving a long time”. I quickly say “no” because I do not want anyone getting the wrong idea. ... It bothers me, this gap between what our equipment is telling the world about us and the truth. Enough that I considered getting rid of my bc and long hose

I would hate to give up good gear just so guides do not assure you are experienced. Maybe embroider the shoulder straps with “Newbie”, or get sleeves to put over them? Or 'Beginner", but that is longer. Or maybe "Vacation Diver" sewn down each shoulder strap, maybe the left red and the right green for a nautical theme. I think most would view that as self aware. And it might be a service to other beginning divers, that your type of gear is an option. It might be a more comfortable conversation piece. I used white duck tape and a marker to write “Is it wise?” on my backplate as a note to myself. Maybe something similar.

 

[tursiops]

I would hate to give up good gear just so guides do not assure you are experienced. Maybe embroider the shoulder straps with “newbie”, or get sleeves to put over them? Or 'Beginner", but that is longer. I think most would view that as self aware. And it might be a service to other beginning divers, that your type of gear is an option. I used white duck tape and a marker to write “Is it wise?” on my backplate as a note to myself. Maybe something similar.

YourBagTag will make a really nice tag that says anything 9 characters or less, that you can put right there on your BCD.
"Newbie" is just 6 characters!
SCUBA BC Name Tag