Individual Rights, and other Myths

[MXGratefulDiver]

WHILE THIS THREAD IS GOING MEN AND WOMEN ARE IN HARMS WAY PURCHASING FREEDOM WITH THEIR LIVES!

That's debatable ... I think the last war where US troops fought for freedom ended in 1945. What men and women have fought for since then is "national interest" ... which usually doesn't purchase freedom for anybody.

But perhaps that's a topic best discussed in The Pub ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

Lives are rarely saved (at least in diving) by a rule or regulation, in fact I'd go so far as to argue (virtually by definition) that proper training all but obviates the need for rules and regulations. The problem is that the training available, by and large, is not up to that challenge, so until average training is drastically improved, we are stuck with often stupid rules and regulations whose sole purpose is to protect the drastically incompetent and/or unknowing.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hello All,

Random thoughts:

I am stealing this from someone: "Government is not the answer, it is the problem!"

Ronald Reagan ... who was at the time campaigning to be the chief guy running the government.

Government regulation of diving will not prevent Darwinism from removing genes from our collective pool. Nor will a strict adherance to PADI marketing orthodoxy eliminate the effects of Darwinism.

A government agency, or NGO, who promises to protect you from all things painful, will give you one painfully boring and frustrated life. Bureaucrats are the disease. Death is gauranteed, bureacrats are not.

Once again ... this is stuff that would better be discussed in The Pub ... where politics is the primary topic of conversation.

Personally I prefer to keep my politics out of diving ... at every conceivable level.

Oh yea, depth is not the problem. Improper management of nitrogen, oxygen, pressure, exposure, individual psychology, and gas are the problems. (people have gone to great depths in DSRVs; we can go deep and safely).

Depth becomes the problem when all those other topics are glossed over in a diver's education ... or discussed in a "bookish" way that doesn't put the context around how to manage those things properly. Add a course that only requires you to do something once ... in a controlled environment ... under supervision ... and you've created a situation where people seek depth without any reasonable understanding of how to prepare for it ... or how to deal with it when something goes wrong. That's when Darwin comes a'calling.

Yes, people have gone to great depths safely. It might behoove us to consider how much preparation, training, equipment, and most importantly ... self-discipline ... went into getting them there and back safely.

If you believe depth is a problem, you have been succesfully indoctrinated by PADI.

Not really ... I've been indoctrinated by having people I know jump into the water without being adequately prepared and having their dead bodies pulled out sometime later by someone else. Have you ever had to tow a dead diver to shore because they went too deep, ran out of air, and blew their lungs out clawing their way to the surface? You should try it sometime ... it'll change your perspective on a lot of things ... no PADI required.

Do you remember which organization fought against Nitrox and Tech diving?

Sure ... pretty much every recreational agency that existed prior to 1992 ... along with Rodale's and other diving publications of the day.

Now I have a question for you ... do you know what changed their mind? I suggest you find out ... because it pertains to the very topic of regulation that we're currently discussing ...

You keep the nannies, I'll keep my freedom.

Freedom isn't just something you're entitled to ... you have to earn it. You earn it by demonstrating that you're responsible enough to handle it.

Didn't your parents teach you that? Or did they just one day hand you the keys to the family sedan and tell you to go ahead and do whatever you please?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Lives are rarely saved (at least in diving) by a rule or regulation, in fact I'd go so far as to argue (virtually by definition) that proper training all but obviates the need for rules and regulations. The problem is that the training available, by and large, is not up to that challenge, so until average training is drastically improved, we are stuck with often stupid rules and regulations whose sole purpose is to protect the drastically incompetent and/or unknowing.

That's a large part of the answer ... but not all of it.

As is being demonstrated in this conversation, people have a mind of their own ... and the other part of the answer is following your training. The best training in the world won't do you any good at all if you choose to ignore it. We've had many, many, demonstrations of that over the years among ScubaBoard members who have been involved in fatal accidents ... many of them very experienced divers. Agnes and Opal come immediately to mind as recent examples ... they were both trained not to do the things that ultimately killed them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mike Boswell]

As to the "rules and regulations" for recreational scuba, I try to abide by the following:

1. Plan your dive.
2. Dive with a buddy.
3. Perform a buddy check prior to the dive.
4. Don't hold your breath underwater.
5. Don't dive deeper than 130 (or whatever) feet.
6. Stay within NDL limits using table or computer.
7. Ascend no faster than 60 (or whatever) ft./minute.
8. Perform 3-minute safety stop at 15 ft.
9. Be back on the boat with 500 psi in your tank.

I'm pretty sure that every one of those "rules" has "saved" me, in one way or another. And I really can't imagine that further training would change any of those rules in a meaningful way.

 

[Thalassamania]

That's a large part of the answer ... but not all of it.

As is being demonstrated in this conversation, people have a mind of their own ... and the other part of the answer is following your training. The best training in the world won't do you any good at all if you choose to ignore it. We've had many, many, demonstrations of that over the years among ScubaBoard members who have been involved in fatal accidents ... many of them very experienced divers. Agnes and Opal come immediately to mind as recent examples ... they were both trained not to do the things that ultimately killed them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Have you actually taught if they have not actually learned?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Rules are useful only if you understand why they exist, and how to make them work for you. Some rules ... such as the 3-minute safety stop ... are situational. I've actually seen someone run himelf out of air trying to stay at 15 feet for 3 minutes. End the damn dive already ... you can't breathe water!

The "back on the boat with 500 psi" rule irks me ... it's like giving someone directions to your house and including the instruction "turn left 1/4 mile before you get to the fire station". It's not a rule ... it's a goal ... and unless you have some understanding of how to achieve the goal, it's useless.

Dive with a buddy ... another useless rule unless you know how to be a buddy. There's more to it than just jumping in the water with another diver and paddling around in the same general vicinity. Planning, communication, expectations, and a bit of self-discipline go into diving comfortably and successfully with another person. Without those things, it often becomes an exercise in stress management.

Don't hold your breath underwater ... what this really means is don't hold your breath while changing depths ... because if your lungs become a closed system, even a moderately small change in depth can kill you.

Stay within NDL ... there's absolutely nothing wrong with violating NDL if you have the discipline and gas to make a slow enough ascent to honor your obligations ... AND ... if you are adequately prepared to deal with any potential problems you might encounter without the need to surface.

All of the "rules" that you will receive in your OW training are more accurately called "rules of thumb" ... and they're a starting point ... designed to keep you alive and healthy while you work toward developing better skills and a better understanding of why they exist. None of them are inviolate as stated. They are ... for the most part ... intended to help you train your body to react safely in situations where you may not have the mental bandwidth ... due to task loading ... to consciously think about what you need to do to get yourself out of a bad situation.

This is why experience is so important ... you don't really learn how to dive by taking a class ... and you don't really learn how to avoid problems by following rules. Those things teach you how to learn. The real learning occurs when you spend time in the water, experiencing those "aha" moments when something you read or your instructor told you suddenly takes on a whole new meaning that can be applied directly to the experience of the dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Have you actually taught if they have not actually learned?

I didn't say they didn't learn ... I said they chose not to adhere to what they knew to be the right thing to do.

The world's best teacher still cannot make choices for their students ... we all do that for ourselves ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[markmud]

Ronald Reagan ... who was at the time campaigning to be the chief guy running the government.

Thank you! mm

Once again ... this is stuff that would better be discussed in The Pub ... where politics is the primary topic of conversation.

Personally I prefer to keep my politics out of diving ... at every conceivable level.

I am glad for you; however, the OP brought politics into this thread. "Individual Rights, and other Myths." The title of this thread is about political philosophy. I tried to avoid threadjacking--how about you? MM


Depth becomes the problem when all those other topics are glossed over in a diver's education ... or discussed in a "bookish" way that doesn't put the context around how to manage those things properly. Add a course that only requires you to do something once ... in a controlled environment ... under supervision ... and you've created a situation where people seek depth without any reasonable understanding of how to prepare for it ... or how to deal with it when something goes wrong. That's when Darwin comes a'calling.

I did? Where? I never said that anarchy in any form is a good thing. Following protocols established by good science and investigation is a great way to avoid death. Rules based on group-think or religous orthodoxy are not. mm

Yes, people have gone to great depths safely. It might behoove us to consider how much preparation, training, equipment, and most importantly ... self-discipline ... went into getting them there and back safely.


Thank you for stating what I said succinctly, in a different way. mm


Not really ... I've been indoctrinated by having people I know jump into the water without being adequately prepared and having their dead bodies pulled out sometime later by someone else. Have you ever had to tow a dead diver to shore because they went too deep, ran out of air, and blew their lungs out clawing their way to the surface? You should try it sometime ... it'll change your perspective on a lot of things ... no PADI required.

Fortunately for me, I have avoided the stupid people. I stay away from people who are not safety conscience. For the same reasons, I don't go camping at Occupy Protests. mm

Sure ... pretty much every recreational agency that existed prior to 1992 ... along with Rodale's and other diving publications of the day.

Now I have a question for you ... do you know what changed their mind? I suggest you find out ... because it pertains to the very topic of regulation that we're currently discussing ...

Yes, they changed their minds because the tide turned on them. They changed their minds kicking and screaming. mm

Freedom isn't just something you're entitled to ... you have to earn it. You earn it by demonstrating that you're responsible enough to handle it.

No, freedom is a birthright that some people, like you evidently, will gladly give to any bureacrat with a badge. mm

Didn't your parents teach you that? Or did they just one day hand you the keys to the family sedan and tell you to go ahead and do whatever you please?

You are confusing freedom with responsibility. Responsible people seek knowledge and skills before excersing some of their freedoms. I have been trained to use firearms responsibly; don't mistake training and responsibility with a creator granted, and in some cases, Constitutionally gauranteed right. mm

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hey Bob,

You have collectivist leanings. I don't. Please don't pretend to be holy enough to assume what and how my parents trained me.

I enjoyed the chat,

markm

 

[Thalassamania]

I didn't say they didn't learn ... I said they chose not to adhere to what they knew to be the right thing to do.

The world's best teacher still cannot make choices for their students ... we all do that for ourselves ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

In my world, which I know is different, it is part of my job to decide on students' propensity to make such bad choices and either fix it or not certify them. I suspect that we have different ideas and convictions as to where teaching begins and ends.