Innovation in diving

[Subcooled]

Caveats

1) I have not read the thread that lead to this discussion.
2) My comments depend on the first two posts of this thread only.
3) I will also present a differing opinion. This knowing decision has nothing to do with the posters that I comment on. I just feel that a different opinion will be good for the discussion.
4) This discussion is a bit philosophical, as it should, but is represents my true beliefs.

And you had a total distance of around 4800' on a scooter, solo and without a bottom timer or computer

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Just starting to read this, but the max penetration was 600m = 2000ft, not 4800ft. True, it's a long way in, but it is not 4800ft.

OK, so 600m in without computers?

If the depth is known and many dives have been done at the same site, then probably the diver knows perfectly how long the gas lasts and how much deco is incurred and what that means. As long as there is enough gas, what's the problem?

About calculated risk

The risk may have been very low indeed. It is also worth noting that a calculated risk is a calculated risk. It may be small. It may be large. But it is calculated. Computed. Estimated. Guessed. Calculated is NOT synonymous to 0.0001%. Sometimes, I have taken a calculated risk of 50%. My life wasn't on stake then, though. Sometimes (not usually) people take calculated risks far beyond 50%, even when that endangers their lives.

I really don't know any of cave divers that would think that was a calculated risk. A foolish or stupid decision? Yes

No.

A valid decision by a person who knows the site.

A caveat is in place, though. I am not a "cave diver" - whatever that may mean. I have only dived in caves seven times. Very inexperienced, that is. I have not been further than sump 6 at 1.5km from surface (most of it was dry cave). I have done 50+ mine dives (two sites), under ice and rock, but no caves. What would I know? I do value my life, but I do not feel dependent on computers. I have one important gauge though, and that is the SPG. It pretty much dictates my diving. Deco? Yes. I know it's cleared on a routine swim back.

It is very easy to condemn people that do not dive according to the rule book of some commercial company.

I think that everyone should try and think, "if I were to die doing this what would be posted about my dive."

What is posted on an online forum means nothing once you are dead. Once you are dead you feel no loss. Only things you do while you live, matter. So, go ahead. Do the things you love. You will lead a happy life and die happy. Nothing else matters. The alternative is to listen to others, forsake your dreams, and linger. The condemning and denying voices can be vocal.

I will almost be 100% sure that everyone would agree, when they pulled your body out, that not wearing a bottom timer or computer was as stupid decision as one could make! Bottom timer, watch, computer is OW 101!

Using a bottom timer to turn a dive is worse that using an spg to turn the dive. Decompression complicate things, though.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Some good points Subcool.

 

[gianaameri]

The risk may have been very low indeed. It is also worth noting that a calculated risk is a calculated risk. It may be small. It may be large. But it is calculated. Computed. Estimated. Guessed. Calculated is NOT synonymous to 0.0001%. Sometimes, I have taken a calculated risk of 50%. My life wasn't on stake then, though. Sometimes (not usually) people take calculated risks far beyond 50%, even when that endangers their lives.

The calculated risk decision on the day was on the relative risk of carrying out a dive without Dive Computer/Bottom Timer vs. having one instead on the same dive.

By planning the dive such that a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer would not have been a necessity (i.e. inconsequential to have it or not), it negated the incremental risk of not carrying one.

The absolute risk of cave diving is not insignificant, but that is a risk which has/had already been underwritten in full, and in any event assessed and managed.

So, it is important to distinguish between relative (or incremental risk from a change or a non-change), and absolute risk.

There was no incremental risk in carrying out that dive that day without Dive Computer/Bottom Timer notwithstanding the absolute risk inherent with the cave diving activity which was/is instead always there.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Caveats
1) I have not read the thread that lead to this discussion.
2) My comments depend on the first two posts of this thread only.
3) I will also present a differing opinion. This knowing decision has nothing to do with the posters that I comment on. I just feel that a different opinion will be good for the discussion.
4) This discussion is a bit philosophical, as it should, but is represents my true beliefs.

--------------
Just starting to read this, but the max penetration was 600m = 2000ft, not 4800ft. True, it's a long way in, but it is not 4800ft.

OK, so 600m in without computers?

If the depth is known and many dives have been done at the same site, then probably the diver knows perfectly how long the gas lasts and how much deco is incurred and what that means. As long as there is enough gas, what's the problem?

About calculated risk

The risk may have been very low indeed. It is also worth noting that a calculated risk is a calculated risk. It may be small. It may be large. But it is calculated. Computed. Estimated. Guessed. Calculated is NOT synonymous to 0.0001%. Sometimes, I have taken a calculated risk of 50%. My life wasn't on stake then, though. Sometimes (not usually) people take calculated risks far beyond 50%, even when that endangers their lives.

No.

A valid decision by a person who knows the site.

A caveat is in place, though. I am not a "cave diver" - whatever that may mean. I have only dived in caves seven times. Very inexperienced, that is. I have not been further than sump 6 at 1.5km from surface (most of it was dry cave). I have done 50+ mine dives (two sites), under ice and rock, but no caves. What would I know? I do value my life, but I do not feel dependent on computers. I have one important gauge though, and that is the SPG. It pretty much dictates my diving. Deco? Yes. I know it's cleared on a routine swim back.

It is very easy to condemn people that do not dive according to the rule book of some commercial company.

What is posted on an online forum means nothing once you are dead. Once you are dead you feel no loss. Only things you do while you live, matter. So, go ahead. Do the things you love. You will lead a happy life and die happy. Nothing else matters. The alternative is to listen to others, forsake your dreams, and linger. The condemning and denying voices can be vocal.

Using a bottom timer to turn a dive is worse that using an spg to turn the dive. Decompression complicate things, though.

1. You should read it all.
2. You should read it all.
3. I agree and welcome your input.
4. Yes it is your take on the situation and is very valid in my opinion.

You said, " Just starting to read this, but the max penetration was 600m = 2000ft, not 4800ft. True, it's a long way in, but it is not 4800ft. OK, so 600m in without computers?

Sorry but we were both wrong.
Went in 600 meters, then back out 400 meters, then back in 200 meters, then back out 200 meters, then recovered the jump line, then around and about here and there within 250 meters of the entrance, then went exploring a line the very last bit (leading to a small dry chamber) I never dared to follow before with the rebreather due to size/buoyancy considerations, and then got out (having had more fun than if I had done my otherwise planned exploration rebreather dive for the day).

600 meters + 200 meters + 250 meters = 1050 meters = 3444.88 feet


You said, "If the depth is known and many dives have been done at the same site, then probably the diver knows perfectly how long the gas lasts and how much deco is incurred and what that means. As long as there is enough gas, what's the problem?

Well I have over 200 dives at a local dive site. Sometimes I go into deco sometimes not, sometimes I use nitrox and sometimes I use air, sometimes I use a scooter and some times not, sometimes it is cold and sometimes it is not rather hot, dry suit, working etc. the problem with the dive at hand is really "G" did not know the bottom time and or the depth. And to make it worse he chose to go into a section he had never been to before. So, how could he have verified the depth and distance if he has never been there before? I know what "G" and you are going to say but heck, I can look at every map ever posted / produced and still think I might know the cave until I actually dive it.

I agree with you on the calculated risk but in caves the stakes go up. Now compound that with solo, DVP, diving an unknown section, without a bottom timer and depth gauge and the risk increase.


You said, "A caveat is in place, though. I am not a "cave diver" - whatever that may mean. I have only dived in caves seven times. Very inexperienced, that is. I have not been further than sump 6 at 1.5km from surface (most of it was dry cave). I have done 50+ mine dives (two sites), under ice and rock, but no caves. What would I know? I do value my life, but I do not feel dependent on computers. I have one important gauge though, and that is the SPG. It pretty much dictates my diving. Deco? Yes. I know it's cleared on a routine swim back.

Well you have dived caves seven times but not a cave diver. I don't even know what that means. And there was no downplay about having a SPG and how sometimes it controls your dive time. Sometimes you have to turn on light burn time, sometimes you have to turn on DPV run time, sometimes you have to turn on gas available compared to deco time, CNS, O2, etc. But without a timer then how do you know any of those factors? You don't!

You said, "What is posted on an online forum means nothing once you are dead. Once you are dead you feel no loss. Only things you do while you live, matter. So, go ahead. Do the things you love. You will lead a happy life and die happy. Nothing else matters. The alternative is to listen to others, forsake your dreams, and linger. The condemning and denying voices can be vocal.

Well, I work in a trauma ER and ICU. I see death almost each and everyday I work. So it may not be the postings after you die but it damn sure is the risk that the rescue team has to face. It is not worth the pain of the family members left behind. Your words are just selfish. "I will do as I like and to hell with those that have to clean up the mess, grievance of the family members, the chances that rescue personnel take in getting you butt out of a hole in the ground, etc."

You said, "Using a bottom timer to turn a dive is worse that using a spg to turn the dive. Decompression complicate things, though."

I agree and we have not even discussed one over the other. Did you know that sometimes the light burn time can take precedence over the gas available?

So with all that said, simply without a bottom timer and a depth gauge you really have no knowledge other than the body of water you are diving in.

 

[Subcooled]

the problem with the dive at hand is really "G" did not know the bottom time and or the depth.

Not knowing the depth, deco obligation, and site is indeed a very big problem. Going a familiar route once again would not. You are of course correct that adding a dpv with added range and speed makes it easier to get into problems, e.g. if it fails. And solo. True. I wouldnt take such risks personally. I somehow got the impression that the site was more familiar.

Well you have dived caves seven times but not a cave diver. I don't even know what that means. And there was no downplay about having a SPG and how sometimes it controls your dive time. Sometimes you have to turn on light burn time, sometimes you have to turn on DPV run time, sometimes you have to turn on gas available compared to deco time, CNS, O2, etc. But without a timer then how do you know any of those factors? You don't!

Ok, not an experienced cave diver. Mines are not caves (no flow, more space, more regular form, some risks specific to mines, many dangers of natural caves removed...) and short shallow sumps are not the same as extended penetration in water. I have done a certain amount of dive planning and risk assesment prior to my dives though, so once I start a mine dive I pretty much know where I am going. That is a bonus of diving in a mine and a known site. As a result, I know my turning point pretty much in advance. I can understand that an unknown part of a natural cave is a really big risk, especially with equipment/team problems. I would not dare to do such a dive.

You are right. Diving back and forth, at variable speed (dpv), without knowing the depth, probably makes it impossible to even estimate time and light/dpv burn times. At greater depths/longer dive times deco obligation also becomes very troublesome.

So it may not be the postings after you die but it damn sure is the risk that the rescue team has to face. It is not worth the pain of the family members left behind.

Very valid points, yes.

Did you know that sometimes the light burn time can take precedence over the gas available?

Of course. Or the dpv battery. Or the ability to actually swim back without the dpv. Or changes in flow (direction/speed)... Im not a rebreather diver so light burn times tend to be five fold, per light, as compared to gas reserves. He was at least doing some sort of distance controllong by staying closer to the entrance at the later part of the dive. Diving back and forth complicates contingency planning tremendously.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Thanks for you valid input Subcooled. Now you see the point I am stressing. It was a reckless dive centered around piss poor planning.

 

[gianaameri]

Thanks for you valid input Subcooled. Now you see the point I am stressing. It was a reckless dive centered around piss poor planning.

So, Tony, exactly what emergency (i.e. state the emergency) could have been "prevented" (to use your own words) by the Dive Computer/Bottom Timer (which admittedly I did not have breaking Scuba 101 rule) that dive on that day?

P.S. Nice video: "Cova des Pas de Vallgornera from Free Frog on Vimeo" ...can you get in a deco situation there in this 65000+ meters cave??? see: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/55074119/Endins/35-147-164.pdf

---------- Post added January 29th, 2014 at 02:50 AM ----------

Not knowing the depth, deco obligation, and site is indeed a very big problem. Going a familiar route once again would not. You are of course correct that adding a dpv with added range and speed makes it easier to get into problems, e.g. if it fails. And solo. True. I wouldnt take such risks personally. I somehow got the impression that the site was more familiar.


Ok, not an experienced cave diver. Mines are not caves (no flow, more space, more regular form, some risks specific to mines, many dangers of natural caves removed...) and short shallow sumps are not the same as extended penetration in water. I have done a certain amount of dive planning and risk assesment prior to my dives though, so once I start a mine dive I pretty much know where I am going. That is a bonus of diving in a mine and a known site. As a result, I know my turning point pretty much in advance. I can understand that an unknown part of a natural cave is a really big risk, especially with equipment/team problems. I would not dare to do such a dive.

You are right. Diving back and forth, at variable speed (dpv), without knowing the depth, probably makes it impossible to even estimate time and light/dpv burn times. At greater depths/longer dive times deco obligation also becomes very troublesome.


Very valid points, yes.


Of course. Or the dpv battery. Or the ability to actually swim back without the dpv. Or changes in flow (direction/speed)... Im not a rebreather diver so light burn times tend to be five fold, per light, as compared to gas reserves. He was at least doing some sort of distance controllong by staying closer to the entrance at the later part of the dive. Diving back and forth complicates contingency planning tremendously.

DPV burn-time is 2.3 hours at maximum speed. It is normally used at mid-speed (never max. speed)... so I would run out of gas that dive that day (or gas would be dangerously low well beyond the rule of fourths or sixths...) before the DPV fails (and if it fails early due to other reasons unrelated to burn-time I use fins to swim out which is doable from 600 meters in the cave max. penetration no problem with or without visibility on the available gas).

Six lights on the helmet with working burn-time (each) of 3 hours in normal use (more than 6 hours burn-time each in emergency use)... so I would run out of gas that dive that day before the lights fail (plus two more back-up lights in the dry-suit pockets 20+ hour burn-time each).

In and out a few times on the same line, not a problem estimating time in that run. I would know the time in and the time out and the time back in and back out and whichever other route I took that day (using DPV, swimming, silt or no silt). In any event, I would run out of gas in that dive that day before enough time had elapsed to enter into a deco situation (using DPV, swimming, silt or no silt)... so Dive Computer/Bottom Timer would not make a dildo of a difference because there just is not enough gas to get into deco (death would come sooner than a deco obligation that dive that day).

As I said before, depth was known and previously verified at each waypoint (400+ dives, surveyed and mapped section). To this moment those depths and runs are unchanged (barring a cave collapse).

Body revovery?

Not needed, tx., not on that dive that day (well heart attack excluded...).

If I were using a rebreather that dive that day (which I was not) the risk would go up massively and exponentially, but pottering around in a cave with line and fully surveyed with 12 meter average depth, run dived 400+ times, 2 x 18 ltr. side-mount tanks OC, 8 lights, within 600 meter range of the exit, no flow, with or without DPV (at any speed), "overly redundant" in every respect having set-up/prepared for a much longer/deeper exploration dive (which I chose not to do due to forgotten electronics...) - that dive that day was safer than a 30 meter OW dive in the Maldives on a single back-mount Alu80 tank and a dangling Octopus (typical PADI OW diver configuration).

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Just too funny to even to give a serious reply to. I would really like a picture of your kit. 6 lights on a helmet and 2 extra for a total of 8 lights?

---------- Post added January 29th, 2014 at 12:01 PM ----------

P.S. Nice video: "Cova des Pas de Vallgornera from Free Frog on Vimeo" ...can you get in a deco situation there in this 65000+ meters cave??? see: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/55074119/Endins/35-147-164.pdf .

So is this the system you are diving?

 

[gianaameri]

Just too funny to even to give a serious reply to. I would really like a picture of your kit. 6 lights on a helmet and 2 extra for a total of 8 lights?

---------- Post added January 29th, 2014 at 12:01 PM ----------



So is this the system you are diving?

Oh, I see, I have too many lights (on top of too much gas)...

Now, Tony - I am diving "Turtle Nest."

Happy?

Now that you know the name of the cave - can you answer a simple question, just one:

Exactly what emergency (i.e. state the emergency) could have been "prevented" (to use your own words) by the Dive Computer/Bottom Timer (which admittedly I did not have breaking Scuba 101 rule) that dive on that day?

P.S. Look... I found a guy with 4 big lights (2 each side)... I have 6 smaller ones (3 each side)... keep on laughing... :

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/553695_456909797771537_1184196617_n.jpg

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Oh, I see, I have too many lights (on top of too much gas)...

Now, Tony - I am diving "Turtle Nest."

Happy?

Now that you know the name of the cave - can you answer a simple question, just one:

Exactly what emergency (i.e. state the emergency) could have been "prevented" (to use your own words) by the Dive Computer/Bottom Timer (which admittedly I did not have breaking Scuba 101 rule) that dive on that day?

P.S. Look... I found a guy with 4 big lights (2 each side)... I have 6 smaller ones (3 each side)... keep on laughing... :

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/553695_456909797771537_1184196617_n.jpg

I do apologize for the laughing....not very professional of me. Anyway, looking at the picture of the diver with 4 big lights, I would just guess that since he is diving dual rebreathers he just might need 4 primary lights. I also took into accout that he has a rather good computer (VR3) on and he even uses very good regs.

So, a question for you. Did you dive the day after the posted dive that you made?