Innovation in diving

[syntaxerrorsix]

No.

I cannot find a single imaginary (or real and potential) emergency which a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have prevented or resolved that dive that day.

That is why we are still discussing this thread best summarised here:



Bottom line - you are using this thread to attack me personally - why?

Bottom line is you broke standards and limited yourself options if an unforeseen event had occurred and you play it off as something that should be accepted by the community as acceptable. This is a public forum and if you are going to go on the record as saying it's ok to break standards and not follow common protocol I'm going to call you on it so those aspiring to dive at your level in the future use you as an example of what not to be like as opposed to to hoping they can cut corners like you do.

You can try to convince the internet you were right as much as you like. I think your whole story is contrived and given that you won't lend any technical information on the dive site for others to critique I'm resigned to believe that you made the whole thing up much like many of your comments in other threads. You can't speak with an air of authority and then be so damned conflicted without people sitting up and calling you on what they consider complete bovine feces.

 

[gianaameri]

Bottom line is you broke standards and limited yourself options if an unforeseen event had occurred and you play it off as something that should be accepted by the community as acceptable. This is a public forum and if you are going to go on the record as saying it's ok to break standards and not follow common protocol I'm going to call you on it so those aspiring to dive at your level in the future use you as an example of what not to be like as opposed to to hoping they can cut corners like you do.

You can try to convince the internet you were right as much as you like. I think your whole story is contrived and given that you won't lend any technical information on the dive site for others to critique I'm resigned to believe that you made the whole thing up much like many of your comments in other threads. You can't speak with an air of authority and then be so damned conflicted without people sitting up and calling you on what they consider complete bovine feces.

I break standards all the time because Scuba 101 rules are not suitable for cave diving.

Scuba 101 rules were designed for the Open Water environment with a direct line of ascent to the surface.

I break all sort of other diving rules because in my risk assessment breaking them makes my diving safer (i.e. I would not dive an eCCR factory out-of-the-box rebreather and modified mine to be a hybrid with totally independent redundant pPO2 Monitors...).

If you wish, I make my own cave diving rules and s. on diving "rules" I do not agree with (call me the Anti-DIR... or Anti-Whatever).

Now that we cleared this up, I never suggested a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer should be left home or in the garage and not used as a matter of course.

The whole conundrum arises because one day I forgot ALL the frigging electronics so left the rebreather in the car boot and went diving without rebreather and without Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

I did so because I designed a dive which under no imaginable/foreseeable circumstance (at the time and now) a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could serve a critical function.

Tony and you are screaming "sacrilege" - "Gian broke a rule."

Gian is admitting he broke a rule that one time and is asking the dogmatic scuba-theologians what emergency Gian could have faced that dive that day that a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could instead have prevented/resolved.

Oh mighty defenders of the Scuba 101 rules, will you please enlighten this poor sinner?

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I break standards all the time because Scuba 101 rules are not suitable for cave diving.

Scuba 101 rules were designed for the Open Water environment with a direct line of ascent to the surface.

I break all sort of other rules because in my risk assessment breaking them makes my diving safer (i.e. I would not dive an eCCR factory out-of-the-box and modified mine to be a hybrid with totally independent redundant pPO2 Monitors...).

If you wish, I make my own rules and s. on rules I do not agree with (call me the Anti-DIR).

Now that we cleared this up, I never suggested a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer should be left home or in the garage and not used as a matter of course.

The whole conundrum arises because one day I forgot ALL the frigging electronics so left the rebreather in the car boot and went diving without rebreather and without Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

I did so because I designed a dive which under no imaginable circumstance (at the time and now) a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could serve a dildo of a critical function.

Tony and you are screaming "sacrilege" - Gian broke a rule.

Gian is admitting he broke a rule that one time and is asking the dogmatic scuba-theologians what emergency Gian could have faced that dive that day that a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have prevented/resolved.

Oh mighty defenders of the Scuba 101 rules, will you please enlighten this poor sinner?

I already did, your actions despite how you would justify them may influence another person to do the same. Your sin is broadcasting it over the internet like somehow the rules are silly and meant for others not you. Your cave certifying agencies require the use of a bottom timer as well.

Someone else may be equally as foolish. Don't encourage them.

 

[gianaameri]

I already did, your actions despite how you would justify them may influence another person to do the same. Your sin is broadcasting it over the internet like somehow the rules are silly and meant for others not you. Your cave certifying agencies require the use of a bottom timer as well.

Someone else may be equally as foolish. Don't encourage them.

I was not foolish that dive that day because I made a risk assessment and to this moment my risk assessment has stood the scrutiny of you and Tony and others.

The cave was surveyed and dived 400+ times and for that run that dive that day Depth and Time were known to the extent that there was not a chance I could have entered into a deco situation and there was not a single emergency/problem which could have not been resolved without a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

I'd strongly urge everybody not to make my mistake and forget their electronics in the garage and equally not dive if they forget them, but equally if they do dive, for any dive I urge them to make a full risk assessment of the dive before undertaking it.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I was not foolish that dive that day because I made a risk assessment and to this moment my risk assessment has stood the scrutiny of you and Tony and others.

The cave was surveyed and dived 400+ times and for that run that dive that day Depth and Time were known and there was not a chance I could have entered into a deco situation and there was not a single emergency/problem which could have not been resolved without a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

I'd strongly urge everybody not to make my mistake and forget their electronics in the garage and equally not dive if they forget them, but equally if they do dive, for any dive I urge them to make a full risk assessment of the dive before undertaking it.

Risk assessment/management and dumb luck can look awful similar when the outcome is positive. Time will tell for you as well.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Yes, and after that thread I was attacked and pursued to protect what or who and why?

...I'd say now your true colors are coming out.

"Piss poor decision" and cannot explain why!

I don't think that saying that you made a piss poor decision is an attack or bulling you around. If you took it that way then you have too thin skin and you need to start taking things professionally instead of personally. So you stated that 99.9999% of the time you would need a BT and DG or computer but not on this dive. Which was great timing because you had neither of them. So you said that the cave is lined with waypoints and depth marking throughout it. I have never seen lines marked to that degree. Usually a line is knotted for a given distance and then changed to a more permanent line without the knots. OK. I'll bite, show us a video of these lines. Heck you want even tell us the name of the cave and yes I knew "Tutle's Nest" was a red herring. Eagle's Nest / Turtle's Nest. OBTW, it is properly called a tutle's clutch. So why would you not want to tell us the cave's name or show a video? Because then it will show that the lines with depth markings and waypoints simply don't exist. Please prove me wrong. You are trying to tell us that you have dived that cave over 400 times and have no video of it?
So let's end the thread by you showing the depth marks and waypoints on the lines and I'll say maybe it was not as a piss poor decision as I first thought. I still believe that a BT and DG and/or computer is basic 101 required equipment. If you agree then cool if not I am OK with that. What I am not OK with is you posting where newly certified divers might try the same. You may not want to be a mentor or a role model but believe it not people do look at your status in diving and respect your advice.

 

[gianaameri]

Risk assessment/management and dumb luck can look awful similar when the outcome is positive. Time will tell for you as well.

Bollocks.

Irrespective of the outcome of the dive a risk assessment is subject to scrutiny both pre and post dive.

My risk assessment is open to scrutiny and criticism and I am prepared to amend it for my future dives if found to be lacking anywhere.

Equally, I am happy to admit I made an error in my risk assessment for that dive that day, but first I need to know exactly what risk I did not account for that I could have needed that dive that day a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer to resolve/prevent.

So, rule broken that dive, that day, but what was I supposed to do with a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer to prevent or resolve exactly which emergency/risk that dive that day?

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Bollocks.

Irrespective of the outcome of the dive a risk assessment is subject to scrutiny both pre and post dive.

My risk assessment is open to scrutiny and criticism and I am prepared to amend it for my future dives if found to be lacking anywhere.

Equally, I am happy to admit I made an error in my risk assessment for that dive that day, but first I need to know exactly what risk I did not account for that I could have needed that dive that day a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer to resolve/prevent.

So, rule broken that dive, that day, but what was I supposed to do with a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer to prevent or resolve exactly which emergency/risk that dive that day?

It could have prevented this entire thread for one.

It could have prevented anyone reading the entire thread from doubting your credibility.

See the problem here is I simply don't believe that the cave depth and distance is as well marked as you say. Nor do I believe you have over 400 dives in it so nothing you type is going to convince me that you have it together enough to make such risk assessments.

The moment you come off of secret squirrel probation and can post up with some pertinent information that could influence us based on facts instead of your superior memory I'd be glad to admit that I WAS WRONG.

Maybe you could make that your ScubaBoard Challenge.

Until then your "hypothetical" dive can't be confirm or analyzed therefore neither can your choices.

 

[gianaameri]

I don't think that saying that you made a piss poor decision is an attack or bulling you around. If you took it that way then you have too thin skin and you need to start taking things professionally instead of personally. So you stated that 99.9999% of the time you would need a BT and DG or computer but not on this dive. Which was great timing because you had neither of them. So you said that the cave is lined with waypoints and depth marking throughout it. I have never seen lines marked to that degree. Usually a line is knotted for a given distance and then changed to a more permanent line without the knots. OK. I'll bite, show us a video of these lines. Heck you want even tell us the name of the cave and yes I knew "Tutle's Nest" was a red herring. Eagle's Nest / Turtle's Nest. OBTW, it is properly called a tutle's clutch. So why would you not want to tell us the cave's name or show a video? Because then it will show that the lines with depth markings and waypoints simply don't exist. Please prove me wrong. You are trying to tell us that you have dived that cave over 400 times and have no video of it?
So let's end the thread by you showing the depth marks and waypoints on the lines and I'll say maybe it was not as a piss poor decision as I first thought. I still believe that a BT and DG and/or computer is basic 101 required equipment. If you agree then cool if not I am OK with that. What I am not OK with is you posting where newly certified divers might try the same. You may not want to be a mentor or a role model but believe it not people do look at your status in diving and respect your advice.

The cave topography has the depth markings and the bearings and distances of the line which I followed.

The depth is not written on the stalactites or stalagmites or formations or rocks to which the surveyed line is attached to.

Once those points are charted and measured, following that line you know exactly the starting depth and ending depth at each waypoint (i.e. attachment point), and the distance and bearing of each waypoint (i.e. attachment point).

Clearly, you cannot automatically assume that, for example, the depths marked on the survey are correct, or the distances/bearings are correct, but having dived that cave that line 400+ times and having personally verified with my instruments the correctness and accuracy of the survey and knowing the times waypoint to waypoint, I can in my risk assessment rely on that data and the information in respect of the waypoints.

I will add, there may be in caves a something saying "150M" (meaning 150 meters from the entrance), but this may be instead be at 250 meters (because somebody naughty moved it or made an error...).

So, just because you find a marking saying, for example, 150M in a cave, PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME IT TO BE ACCURATE OR CORRECT (it may very well not be).

---------- Post added February 2nd, 2014 at 04:08 PM ----------

It could have prevented this entire thread for one.

It could have prevented anyone reading the entire thread from doubting your credibility.

See the problem here is I simply don't believe that the cave depth and distance is as well marked as you say. Nor do I believe you have over 400 dives in it so nothing you type is going to convince me that you have it together enough to make such risk assessments.

The moment you come off of secret squirrel probation and can post up with some pertinent information that could influence us based on facts instead of your superior memory I'd be glad to admit that I WAS WRONG.

Maybe you could make that your ScubaBoard Challenge.

Until then your "hypothetical" dive can't be confirm or analyzed therefore neither can your choices.

Pass.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

I break standards all the time because Scuba 101 rules are not suitable for cave diving.

Scuba 101 rules were designed for the Open Water environment with a direct line of ascent to the surface.

BS and we have discussed that within the first couple of pages. Thanks for using my "Scuba 101" term. Scuba is a built upon past training and equipment standards and additional training and equipment is added to the foundation that you learned in OW. Everything you have needed and learned in OW class, except for the snorkel, also applies to more advanced diving.

Now for some advice. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.