Interfering Diver

[The Chairman]

Then the rumor got started in the area that I just pulled the cord and released all his weights not even asking about anything. Many people still believe the rumor and not what really happened.

Let no good deed go unpunished!

As a newly minted dive master, I was asked by Walter to take him to Blue Spring. He brought along a couple of buddies, one being an instructor: MB. At the end of the dive, MB approached me with a smile on his face. He felt that I had been herding him the whole dive. In reality, that was true. I knew he was an instructor, but I had no idea HOW he dived or what risks he would take. I blocked his access past the sign as well as hovered over him. He confessed that he had tried to sneak behind me several times to no avail. I was asked to guide, and that's what I concentrated on.

Did I make any mistakes? You betcha. MB even gently pointed out a few. More importantly, he ENCOURAGED me to do better and even invited me to become an instructor.

FWIW, he's a big reason why I became an instructor.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In regards to the "Buddy System" and our expectations of this system. It is always assumed that the "Buddy System" will save us and that we are all better adhering to it or else bad things would happen to us. What about if we think differently to come up with a better way of staying safe? What if we assume that the buddy system isn't perfect and no matter how we teach it, enforce it, preach it, etc., crap will happen and it will fail? Based on this assumption, we need to modify our way of teaching and diving and thus we dive as if we are diving alone even when in buddy pairs? I am borrowing this line of thought from our "way of thinking" in my day job with some adaptation. Depending for our emergency planning on a system that would fail for various reasons is bad planning, isn't?

I don't disagree with this in principle ... but in this application I do. No way, no how, am I going to introduce to a 10-year old kid that they should contemplate diving alone ... or even preparing for their dive with that possibility in mind.

I can see your point with an adult ... but kids don't think like adults, nor act like adults (although lots of adults act like kids at times). Plant that seed in a child's brain and it will find fertile ground for growth ... in ways that adults would probably never consider.

The rules for teaching a child to dive are that they can only dive with a parent, or an adult designated by the parent. The appropriate way to reinforce that rule is to train both the child and their parent how to be responsible dive buddies. Rather than acting on the assumption that the buddy system inevitably breaks down, it's better to approach it from the perspective of what you need to do to make sure it doesn't ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It inhibits an open and candid discussion. We don't need to allow ScubaBoard to devolve into a morass of group think.

I think that overall ScubaBoard is still a fairly friendly place. But in almost any topic where dive situations are discussed, there are the inevitable second-guessers, correctors, and those who just come here looking for a reason to engage in "debate" (to use a nice term for it). It's human nature that as you gain a larger user group, you'll get more impersonal interaction.

I agree that it inhibits an open and candid discussion ... we see that almost daily here. But it does happen ... and I don't like it any more than you do.

I don't see anyone being mean in this thread, though I have seen that elsewhere. The inquisition is an artifact of the old LDS philosophy: "If we don't sell it or teach it, it must be crap!"

I believe it to be more an artifact of human nature. The most frequent violators tend to fall into two categories ... the young (usually men), who have aggressively pursued a particular path for a relatively short period of time and have all the answers, and the old (usually men) who have been doing things the same way for decades and are convinced that nothing today is nearly as good as it was when they were young.

This isn't any different in scuba diving than it is in any other human endeavor ... I think it's just how we humans are wired to establish a "pecking order" in a community.

I have crusaded for ten years for ScubaBoard to be inclusive. Certainly, you don't expect me to stop now?

I sure hope not ... it's what keeps me coming back.

As for that other thread... I am betting people are taking my comments and decision quite personally and think that I am. I am embarrassed for the Board!

You shouldn't be. The Board's fine ... and the behavior of individuals on the board are a reflection of them, not the community as a whole. What occurred in that thread was entirely predictable, given the nature of the people involved in the discussion. I could've told you when you asked the initial question who would be helpful and who would be telling you that you're not worthy. It played out exactly as many previous threads have. As mdb used to put it ... the same people saying the same thing over and over and over.

Bob, I don't disagree with much of what you said, except that I would point out that from the OP's POV, we don't know that the well intentioned DM did NOT do things in precisely the way you outlined.

While I appreciate the opportunity for us to discuss this here, were it me, I would have approached the DM and asked what happened, perhaps to have a discussion with her on her efficacy,

Perhaps the OP now realizes that there were other options for handling such a situation that might be considered in the future. If that's the case, then something positive came of the conversation.

Mistakes are made all the time by the well intentioned. If I had drowned with my tank turned off, I am certain that the blame would have been put on ME and not the DM who got mixed up with my left sided tank valve. While liability always has a place in the discussion, we have to agree that when the boy was UP, it appears that she was the only one accompanying him. Kudos to her for her situational awareness! If only more people showed that initiative, which they probably won't considering the tenor of this thread.

As you noted earlier, I don't see anyone being mean in this thread ... I see some well-intentioned comments, and some folks making conclusions based on available information. If the young DM lady is reading this, I hope that she will see in the comments some things to consider that she hadn't previously thought about. If so, there's some positives to take away from it.

Becoming a DM is an achievement to be proud of ... but it's only the beginning of what could be a long and interesting journey. My advice to any new DM or instructor would be to think of every criticism as an opportunity to sharpen the tools in your tool box. In the long run, you'll be a better diver and dive professional by maintaining an open mind, and not taking critiques as negatives, but as opportunities to learn and improve. Those who take that approach almost always end up becoming someone who's reliable and worth listening to ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

Becoming a DM is an achievement to be proud of ... but it's only the beginning of what could be a long and interesting journey.

That it is. I remember as a newly minted DM that I rarely got any respect. It was perplexing that the same industry that encouraged me to "go for it" had actually turned on me after I had accomplished the "impossible". In the automotive industry, I was honored every time people found out that I had become a "Master Automotive Technician". That too was the beginning of a long and interesting journey.

My advice to any new DM or instructor would be to think of every criticism as an opportunity to sharpen the tools in your tool box.

This is the BEST advice in this thread. Listen to any and all criticisms. Learn from your harshest critic and mistrust your most ardent fans.

 

[BoltSnap]

NWGratefulDiver,

I am not saying that we should abandon diving in buddy pairs, not at all. I am saying that we should evaluate if relaying on the buddy system does really work or if it is just a “placebo” that makes us feel we are doing something right but it turns out that it doesn’t work. Should we be conditioning ourselves instead to think that we need to be trained to dive independently for our survival and safety but in buddy pairs? The system does break down is the reality and perhaps more than it doesn’t. One should be prepared for it and trained to handle one’s self when it does including children if one choses to let children dive.

In regards to 10 year olds that dive, although this has been debated in another thread, if these divers are unable to work as independent divers and handle themselves in a safe and mature way, should they be diving? Again, the system that is allegedly going to protect them will and does break down. If we don’t trust these 10 year olds to drive our most expensive car, should we be trusting them with something more precious, our and their lives?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

NWGratefulDiver,

I am not saying that we should abandon diving in buddy pairs, not at all. I am saying that we should evaluate if relaying on the buddy system does really work or if it is just a “placebo” that makes us feel we are doing something right but it turns out that it doesn’t work. Should we be conditioning ourselves instead to think that we need to be trained to dive independently for our survival and safety but in buddy pairs? The system does break down is the reality and perhaps more than it doesn’t. One should be prepared for it and trained to handle one’s self when it does including children if one choses to let children dive.

In regards to 10 year olds that dive, although this has been debated in another thread, if these divers are unable to work as independent divers and handle themselves in a safe and mature way, should they be diving? Again, the system that is allegedly going to protect them will and does break down. If we don’t trust these 10 year olds to drive our most expensive car, should we be trusting them with something more precious, our and their lives?

Both the buddy system and child divers are subjects of long and extensive debate on many threads over the years ... and ultimately it boils down to what one chooses to believe (I've yet to see anyone swayed by opposing arguments).

I personally believe that teaching a child to dive needs to be something that's evaluated on a case-by-case basis ... and the parent's diving abilities needs to be a large part of the evaluation.

I personally believe that the buddy system breaks down because it isn't properly taught ... it's more a case of being told we should do it, but without any real skills preparation ... at least at the OW level. It doesn't need to break down as frequently and easily as it does, but in order to make it work both dive buddies need appropriate skills and motivation to make it work. This is quite possible with a child and parent, because the motivation is often much stronger due to the family bond than it would be with two unrelated divers. What needs to be emphasized then is the skills.

When I train a child to dive, I am also training the parent to be a responsible dive buddy. It starts with emphasis on why it's important ... and there are drills and exercises both in the pool and checkout dives to strengthen the skills. Both parent and child get the opportunity to "lead" the dive, as well as practicing being the follower. This reduces the tendency for the child to become a dependent diver. The child also has to demonstrate an ability to bring the "unconscious" parent up from the bottom and tow them to shore. They cannot pass the class without that demonstration. The parent needs to demonstrate the ability to pay attention to the child's movements underwater, and they both need to show me they can dive while maintaining visual contact and communicating with each other. I won't pass them until I see this ... and make no mistake, even if a parent is already certified, passing this class for the child means that they BOTH have to demonstrate skills that I can be comfortable make them a functioning team.

As I said earlier ... I have no reservations about the notion that every diver should learn self-sufficiency. But let's be realistic ... the minute you plant in a kid's brain that it's "OK" to prepare for a solo dive, they're gonna want to try it. And kids don't think about risks ... they'll do things that'll scare the crap outta their parents without a second thought or a moment's hesitation. So I don't go there ... I WON'T go there. I want that kid thinking that the only way for them to dive is within the guidelines of the buddy system, and using the rules and skills that I teach them.

Once they're a little older and more mature, we can talk about the nuances of preparing as a solo diver, but diving as a buddy diver. But kids don't comprehend nuance ... tell them something's OK and they're gonna take you literally. That's a slippery slope I don't think we need to be stepping down.

My 2 psi ... I respect your right to believe otherwise ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[BoltSnap]

NWGratefulDiver,

As I said earlier ... I have no reservations about the notion that every diver should learn self-sufficiency. But let's be realistic ... the minute you plant in a kid's brain that it's "OK" to prepare for a solo dive, they're gonna want to try it. And kids don't think about risks ... they'll do things that'll scare the crap outta their parents without a second thought or a moment's hesitation. So I don't go there ... I WON'T go there. I want that kid thinking that the only way for them to dive is within the guidelines of the buddy system, and using the rules and skills that I teach them.

I am not advocating going solo or teaching kids or anybody else that diving solo is the norm. I am just saying that that buddy system is not reliable to believe in it as our primary survival plan. In fact, we don't have to mention anything about diving solo at all if this mention would expose kids to facts that are detrimental to their safety.

As regards to kids following their parents or their ability to respect this matter, what makes you believe they would follow their parent's directions if you are also believing that they can't think or act safely on their own for them to need parent's vigilance U/W?

I respect your right to believe otherwise ...

I sincerely appreciate your courtesy but please note that I don't believe in one direction in one way or another just yet. I am merely questioning "common beliefs" that most people seem to accept as God's word when these beliefs seem to not make sense or show a great deal of contradiction.

BTW, in my day job, I get paid to think outside the box and question all accepted truths, review procedures and work to see vulnerabilities in these accepted truths. The payoff is great.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

NWGratefulDiver,

I am not advocating going solo or teaching kids or anybody else that diving solo is the norm. I am just saying that that buddy system is not reliable to believe in it as our primary survival plan. In fact, we don't have to mention anything about diving solo at all if this mention would expose kids to facts that are detrimental to their safety.

As regards to kids following their parents or their ability to respect this matter, what makes you believe they would follow their parent's directions if you are also believing that they can't think or act safely on their own for them to need parent's vigilance U/W?

I sincerely appreciate your courtesy but please note that I don't believe in one direction in one way or another just yet. I am merely questioning "common beliefs" that most people seem to accept as God's word when these beliefs seem to not make sense or show a great deal of contradiction.

BTW, in my day job, I get paid to think outside the box and question all accepted truths, review procedures and work to see vulnerabilities in these accepted truths. The payoff is great.

So how would you go about teaching self-sufficiency skills to a child while staying within the training standards of your agency? What approach would you take in a classroom? In a pool? In checkout dives?

This isn't just for you ... but an open invitation for ideas ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[BoltSnap]

So how would you go about teaching self-sufficiency skills to a child while staying within the training standards of your agency? What approach would you take in a classroom? In a pool? In checkout dives?

I don't know just yet. In regards to training standards set by agencies, I don't think that we should let their short sightedness or their boxed way of think limit our imagination. If we come up with better ideas or solutions and these people won't budge, screw them, we find somebody who would listen. Just think of "Solo Diving" 2 decades ago, no one ever thought that the incumbent certification agencies would even entertain the idea of sanctioning it. Let's not forget the Nitrox debate either.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't know just yet. In regards to training standards set by agencies, I don't think that we should let their short sightedness or their boxed way of think limit our imagination. If we come up with better ideas or solutions and these people won't budge, screw them, we find somebody who would listen. Just think of "Solo Diving" 2 decades ago, no one ever thought that the incumbent certification agencies would even entertain the idea of sanctioning it. Let's not forget the Nitrox debate either.

According to your profile, you and I teach for the same agency. They do give you quite a bit of leeway to be creative. But they also set goals and limits. Among them, for children, are the requirement that a Junior Diver be accompanied by a parent or adult designated by the parent. I don't see that as an onerous or short sighted requirement.

It's very easy to complain about agency limitations ... but they exist for a reason. Sometimes those reasons may be less applicable at an individual level than they were intended. But it's always good to understand why they exist.

And as someone who writes a great deal of my own course material, I've found NAUI to be quite accepting of new ideas if you can convey a good reason why those ideas should be implemented.

That's why I asked ... perhaps this would be a good discussion to have in the I2I forum ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)