Interfering Diver

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I think the best scenario after what happened would be to take the new DM aside, away from everyone else, and just help her understand what she should've/could've done different,
Rather than assume that she failed, wouldn't it have been better to have ASKED her what happened? Her actions might have actually been meritorious, but we'll never know.

Here's a think. If the kid was way high and given a weight that made him too heavy, then why didn't HE add some air? We are blaming the DM, but she's not the one ascending and then bouncing off the sand. A competent diver could have (should have) handled that easily. I just don't see that as her problem.
 
I think all of this revolves around the kid not being an amazing diver. If I was floating there, perfectly neutral and comfortable, enjoying my dive, then someone comes up and shoves 5lb in my pocket I'd be in a pretty non-PG mood.
 
I was ready to dump on the new Dm as well until I reread the post. What she did was wrong yes, and if indeed she let him know she put weight in after the fact on the boat even worse. However had the boy's buddy's been in proper position to observe him and actually be his buddy she never would have had the opportunity to do it.

That dad and the dive leader were below him and not even in a position to see her put weight in was to me inexcusable on both the dad's part and that of the dive leader IF the dive leader was acting as anything more than a guide. The question now is why was dad not in eye to eye contact with his son? If they had been using proper buddy protocol he would have been. Did he not know that was where he was supposed to be? If not, why not? How were he and his son instructed in buddy procedures? Did they pay attention?

The fact that a 10 yr old was far enough away from his dive buddy (dad) that no one saw the "helpful" DM do what she did is to me far worse. Unfortunately it is not an unusual occurrence in many places I have been where new divers are present. It's why I wrote my presentation on the failure of the buddy system as it seems to be taught or more correctly not taught in too many cases.
 
You guys are brutal. She has been tried, convicted and ready for execution all on hearsay! If she is on ScubaBoard, she's probably in tears right now. No one expects the Scuba Inquisition!

Let's face it: ALL of us make mistakes. Many of these mistakes are from trying to be too helpful. When my air was turned off recently, you can bet that the boat DM and I had a short discussion about it. You can be sure that it was a very respectful and gentle discussion about how valves can be right or left, and that if you feel that a diver's air is off, it's best to communicate that to him before you help him to death.

For all we know, the lady offered the weight to the boy and he eagerly took it, only he was confused as to where to put it. She might have then shoved it into his pocket for him, solving problem #2.

It seems that many of you think that she should just let the boy struggle. Possibly her intervention kept him from actually surfacing. Could she do it better? Only with experience. Unfortunately, you guys think she should not get more experience until she has more experience. Shenanigans. 125 dives is PLENTY for a dive master to be able to help those. Heck, I have had former students with less than 20 dives helping others on a dive.

What I am truly afraid of is that we are going to DISCOURAGE divers helping other divers. THAT would be tragic. Let's cut the anonymous Lady DM some slack and assume the BEST rather that the WORST.

I'll disagree with you on a couple points, Pete.

First off, anyone who's been on Scubaboard for more than about a day should expect the Scuba Inquisition ... for better or worse, it's been an increasing part of our culture as the board has grown, and I think that's what happens in any human endeavor as it gets larger and less "personal". And, frankly, I don't think anyone's been particularly mean-spirited about it. There's a thread currently ongoing in another forum where you've been subjected to the Scuba Inquisition ... and while I think the inquisitors mean well, I cringe just reading it.

Second, it sounds as though the boy was being watched, and in the judgment of the OP he was handling his situation quite well. It's common for a newer diver to sometimes struggle with buoyancy issues ... as Lynne observed, it's often because something caused him to change his breathing pattern and he didn't anticipate the changes that would make to buoyancy in time to stay on top of it. I've observed the same effect in some of my students from time to time, and will often just kick back and say to myself "let's see how they handle it". Granted this was a 10-year old kid, but kids generally learn and adapt rather quickly. So if I were there, I'd probably have let the kid work it out too if it appeared he was recovering. Many ... most, I think ... people learn best by working through problems on their own. It helps them develop a better understanding of the nature of the problem than jumping in and helping them "fix" it would.

By getting involved, at her level of training, this young woman was assuming a duty of care that could have opened her to a massive liability if something had gone wrong and the kid got hurt. It would be interesting to know what kind of insurance she was carrying ... because if it was a shop policy, it may not have covered her to act in the manner she did while not on the job as a shop employee ... particularly after announcing to all on the boat that she was a dive professional. She needs to consider that as a professional, she works under a different set of rules than your basic recreational divers do, and with additional layers of responsibility and liability. If she is a member of ScubaBoard, and reading this thread, I hope she understands this isn't a criticism, but a caution to consider her actions in light of her training.

In this case, both parties could have handled it better ... the dive buddy and/or DM in charge of the group should have been closer to the boy ... within reaching distance or possibly above him ... to render aid if needed. She did the right thing by being there. I would argue that putting a weight in the kid's pocket wasn't the right thing to do ... well-intentioned, perhaps, but if you're going to do that to someone you should ALWAYS let them know what you're doing. In my case, I will take the weight out, show it to them, and point to where I am going to put it. Only after the diver knows what you're doing, and can anticipate the consequences, should you proceed to put it in their pocket.

Acting without a diver's knowledge builds dependent divers. Communicating before acting builds thinking divers. If the young DM is reading this, I hope she considers the difference ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
In regards to the "Buddy System" and our expectations of this system. It is always assumed that the "Buddy System" will save us and that we are all better adhering to it or else bad things would happen to us. What about if we think differently to come up with a better way of staying safe? What if we assume that the buddy system isn't perfect and no matter how we teach it, enforce it, preach it, etc., crap will happen and it will fail? Based on this assumption, we need to modify our way of teaching and diving and thus we dive as if we are diving alone even when in buddy pairs? I am borrowing this line of thought from our "way of thinking" in my day job with some adaptation. Depending for our emergency planning on a system that would fail for various reasons is bad planning, isn't?
 
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I'll disagree with you on a couple points, Pete.
Not unusual, and I always appreciate the counterpoint.
First off, anyone who's been on Scubaboard for more than about a day should expect the Scuba Inquisition
Why? It inhibits an open and candid discussion. We don't need to allow ScubaBoard to devolve into a morass of group think.
for better or worse, it's been an increasing part of our culture as the board has grown, and I think that's what happens in any human endeavor as it gets larger and less "personal". And, frankly, I don't think anyone's been particularly mean-spirited about it. There's a thread currently ongoing in another forum where you've been subjected to the Scuba Inquisition ... and while I think the inquisitors mean well, I cringe just reading it.
I don't see anyone being mean in this thread, though I have seen that elsewhere. The inquisition is an artifact of the old LDS philosophy: "If we don't sell it or teach it, it must be crap!" I have crusaded for ten years for ScubaBoard to be inclusive. Certainly, you don't expect me to stop now? As for that other thread... I am betting people are taking my comments and decision quite personally and think that I am. I am embarrassed for the Board!
I would argue that putting a weight in the kid's pocket wasn't the right thing to do ... well-intentioned, perhaps, but if you're going to do that to someone you should ALWAYS let them know what you're doing. In my case, I will take the weight out, show it to them, and point to where I am going to put it. Only after the diver knows what you're doing, and can anticipate the consequences, should you proceed to put it in their pocket.
Bob, I don't disagree with much of what you said, except that I would point out that from the OP's POV, we don't know that the well intentioned DM did NOT do things in precisely the way you outlined.

While I appreciate the opportunity for us to discuss this here, were it me, I would have approached the DM and asked what happened, perhaps to have a discussion with her on her efficacy, Mistakes are made all the time by the well intentioned. If I had drowned with my tank turned off, I am certain that the blame would have been put on ME and not the DM who got mixed up with my left sided tank valve. While liability always has a place in the discussion, we have to agree that when the boy was UP, it appears that she was the only one accompanying him. Kudos to her for her situational awareness! If only more people showed that initiative, which they probably won't considering the tenor of this thread.
 
There are always 2 sides to a story. I learned this when in management trying to settle conflicts between 2 or more people.

This girl DM has not had a chance to tell her side of the story and we are getting a 3rd hand report from someone who never saw what happened.

Let's look at some facts and question a few other items:

1) Was there an actual DM or instructor assigned to this group from the dive boat? If so, where were they?
2) We place an inexperienced father as a dive buddy with a newly certified 10 year old son so what can you expect when dad appears to have had his own buoyancy problem. How can he help his own son?

This sounds like a recipe for potential disaster from the beginning in my humble opinion. The dad should have spent some extra money on a dive guide or instructor/DM to assist them during the dives.

I am in no way defending the impromptu DM certified individual but showing there are always 2 sides to every story and sometimes the offended party shares in the blame whether they know it or not.
 
Jim,
You hit it on the head.NO 10YO JOW diver should be out of reach from their adult parent or Trainer /DM doing the dive with them<<<!Never.Period.

That dad and the dive leader were below him and not even in a position to see her put weight in was to me inexcusable on both the dad's part and that of the dive leader IF the dive leader was acting as anything more than a guide. The question now is why was dad not in eye to eye contact with his son? If they had been using proper buddy protocol he would have been. Did he not know that was where he was supposed to be? If not, why not? How were he and his son instructed in buddy procedures? Did they pay attention?

The fact that a 10 yr old was far enough away from his dive buddy (dad)
 
Let's face it: ALL of us make mistakes. Many of these mistakes are from trying to be too helpful.

Yup!

About a year ago I helped an overweighted diver twice. Once from shooting up to the surface as his BCD expanded a lot (shallow dive big pressure differential) as I was hanging onto him while he was trying to dump air as fast as he could.

Second time we were already swimming on the surface (this was a quarry dive) and told him we could drop to the platform at 20ft and adjust his weights if he wishes. So we went down on the platform. I didn't realize that the handle on Zeagel is a dump rip cord and I pulled it. No weight came out as he stuck his weights into a pocket anyways. He got upset about it.

Then the rumor got started in the area that I just pulled the cord and released all his weights not even asking about anything. Many people still believe the rumor and not what really happened.
 
wow a dm with a whopping 120 dives how do you keep all that knowledge and experience in your head. but remember folks this is the same problem as and advanced diver with less than 25 dives.
you dont know what you dont know and sometimes you feel the need to open your mouth and prove it.
 
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