Is advanced open water worth it?

[onlyuman]

Instead of advising others to get AOW to avoid the hassel we should be pushing to change the system that is the problem to begin with.

I'm with you Cap.

 

[Bubble Blower 479]

On a different thread a shop owner mentioned a recent seminar on liability. He said the recommendation was for the shop to learn as little about the diver as possible so they could not be held accountable for the divers skills. They were told to check the C-card at the shop and never ask for any other info. That places the responsibilty on the certifying agency and instructor. Asking to see a log book now shifts more responsibilty to the dive op. providing the dive trip. I don't know what his source was, but it seems like showing your log book may become a thing of the past.

 

[FatCat]

Depends what your previous background is. Before I started diving I was a military pilot and held an amateur Master's ticket ( boating ). When I looked at what was on the curriculum I didn't really see much point in my doing a navigation course and still don't.
You can't assume that everybody starts diving with no previous knowledge.

Now I seriously disagree. Standard course curriculum should be designed for candidates who have no previous experience. Furthermore, navigating under water is totally different from navigating on land. So you were a military pilot. That's all very well, but I've yet to teach the first military pilot. They usually train within the military and then cross over. I have trained civilian jet pilots however and they didn't do any better on navigation than other students.

It's not because you know how to read a compass and how to plot a course that you can actually navigate while maintaining buoyancy, equalizing, correcting for current, holding a dive light etc.

Besides, UW navigation is more than just using a compass. There is also "natural" navigation, which is also quite different from navigating on dry land.

If we want the basic courses to be sound, we should at least design them to be useful for every diver. I'm all for personal choice, but not when it comes to basic courses. Choose any specialty you want, but a diver who has done the boat specialty, some fish watching and some photo and video dives is no "advanced" diver in my book. Not even an OW level II or something.

 

[miketsp]

..snip..
Furthermore, navigating under water is totally different from navigating on land. So you were a military pilot. That's all very well, but I've yet to teach the first military pilot. They usually train within the military and then cross over. I have trained civilian jet pilots however and they didn't do any better on navigation than other students.

It's not because you know how to read a compass and how to plot a course that you can actually navigate while maintaining buoyancy, equalizing, correcting for current, holding a dive light etc.

Besides, UW navigation is more than just using a compass. There is also "natural" navigation, which is also quite different from navigating on dry land.
..snip..

I don't know what the standards are nowadays, probably things have changed with all the electronic aids - I think civilian jet pilots are more systems administrators than navigators, but back when I was flying ( you were about 5yrs old by your profile BTW) training low level navigation exercises, (which very few civilian pilots ever do,) I can assure you that the work load was significantly higher than any underwater navigation I have ever done. No GPS, no terrain following systems, no inertial navigation.
All of the techniques that I learned, map to ground, ground to map, use of natural features, drift compensation, use of stop-watch etc are perfectly applicable to the diving I do. And these techniques were trained until they became ingrained & automatic.
Add to the practical training a solid theoretical base in navigation and astro-navigation.
Plus a couple of years doing survey work for marine operations & under-sea cable-laying.

..snip..
If we want the basic courses to be sound, we should at least design them to be useful for every diver.
..snip..

I don't want to sound immodest but I have yet to meet a SI with anything to teach me about navigation.

 

[RICoder]

This is probably going to come off as abrasive...oh well.

To the topic of AOW, it bothers me, but doesn't suprise me, that so many people on this board have so many negative things to say about it. This is a typical response by people who have gotten good at a difficult activity. However, IMHO, I think they are missing the point. The OW cert is really just to give you enough information to dive with relative safety. The AOW cert is more about officially recognizing that people have advanced to the a particular level of qualified diver. Yes, by the time many people go for an AOW they already have those skills required, but isn't that the point of it all? Its like taking a test after having some experience to show that you have advanced to a certain level, and with an instructor, perhaps gain a little insight into those skills at the same time. Some live aboards require them as do some dives, and it is, I would think, a somewhat more reliable mode of determining skill (albeit not significantly advanced skill), than looking at a log book.

Miketsp, I tought land navigation in the Army for years and lead the navigation group of a wilderness search and rescue team. When I took some underwater navigation instruction, I was laughing on the inside thinking that a dive instructor couldn't possibly have anything to teach me about navigation. Then I found out just how wrong I was. Underwater navigation has little in common with ground based (and I would imagine in-flight) navigation.

 

[FatCat]

This is starting to become a bragging contest. Personally, I don't give a flying **** what qualifications outside of diving someone has. If someone can use previous experience to better their diving skills that's very good.

I was actually talking about general course content, not tailor-made courses that take into account what someone already knows.

The majority of divers who take an advanced class are relative novices. They may occasionally be able to plot their course better than I can (in theory), but they'll still be floundering and struggling with task loading. They'll still be trying to do too many things at the same time and they'll have to get used to tilting the compass at the right angle while at the same time equalizing their ears, adding air to their BC, switching on their dive light (over here at least), maintaining buddy contact and achieving the goal of the dive which is to complete the pattern or to find the object.

Anyone who does this for the first time will struggle.

Miketsp is a typical example of a diver who knows more about a specific subject than the average diver. Good for him. It doesn't change the fact that handing out an advanced card to a diver without at least a basic grasp of UW navigation is folly. And unfortunately, some agencies hand out advanced qualifications to people who have no knowledge of navigation.

So, I put it to you all again: which is more useful to a novice diver? Nitrox or navigation? Photo/video or navigation? Fish ID or navigation?...

 

[RICoder]

This is starting to become a bragging contest. Personally, I don't give a flying **** what qualifications outside of diving someone has. If someone can use previous experience to better their diving skills that's very good.

I'm going to assume this wasn't directed at me, even if it looks like it is by its placement in the order of this thread...

So, I put it to you all again: which is more useful to a novice diver? Nitrox or navigation? Photo/video or navigation? Fish ID or navigation?...

Navigation...is there any debate on that subject? I should think not.
I'd put PPB as #2.

 

[FatCat]

I'm going to assume this wasn't directed at me, even if it looks like it is by its placement in the order of this thread...

Nah, nothing personal on this side of the screen. Some seem to take it personal though.

I'm just trying to get the point across that there are some skills that should be part of advanced training and that there are agencies that will allow instructors to issue an advanced card based on nothing but elective subjects.

And I've seen some posts in this thread about LDS's where divers going for advanced are steered in a certain direction, but where navigation is apparently left out. This seems strange to me, that's all.

 

[miketsp]

..snip..
Navigation...is there any debate on that subject? I should think not.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that Navigation is a necessary skill for an AOW cert. What I disagree with is having to do (and pay for) a course to acquire (?) a skill I may already have at a level which exceeds the requirement for a cert.
Normally the course fee includes the checkout.
If it were possible just to pay the check-out dive & certification that would be more acceptable. (We all do this when we believe our base knowledge exceeds requirements. Example - driving test if you move to a new country.)
At the time I was choosing options that wasn't possible so I opted for Nitrox in its place.
Since that time I've witnessed a lot of briefing & debriefings for Navigation training which only confirmed my original opinion.

 

[miketsp]

..snip..
The majority of divers who take an advanced class are relative novices. They may occasionally be able to plot their course better than I can (in theory), but they'll still be floundering and struggling with task loading. They'll still be trying to do too many things at the same time and they'll have to get used to tilting the compass at the right angle while at the same time equalizing their ears, adding air to their BC, switching on their dive light (over here at least), maintaining buddy contact and achieving the goal of the dive which is to complete the pattern or to find the object.
..snip..

Sorry, I don't consider that any of this is part of a Navigation class. These are basic skills that you are describing.
These together with the bit about the dive light are part & parcel of the Night/LowVis course, which I believe should be obligatory as I can see no way of acquiring this experience previously.